Posted by Pastor Steven on December 16, 1999 at 13:07:19:
In Reply to: Re: Another heretical essay for U posted by Dave on December 16, 1999 at 08:15:15:
: : : : : "The Latest Vatican Statement on Christianity and Other Religions" by John Hick. Please read and give feedback, good or bad.
: : : : : * * * * * * * * * : : Interesting question - "How can I believe that the God who created this vast universe chose to reveal Himself only to a small country on the coast of the Mediterratnean, effectively ignoring the rest of the world?" Can God reveal Himself to other, remote peoples? Is that God the Native American Indians serve the same as my God? Did my own earthly father, who rejected Catholocism (and religion as a whole) experience a Christ-less salvation prior to his death (or did he even experience a Christian salvation)? If he died Christ-less, where does traditional Christianity stand in regards to his fate? : : I have to defer to the bible for a moment: John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man can come to the Father except by me." (Scripture quoted from memory - I don't have a bible in front of me, but you get the point). Pre-critical translation of this (i.e. Absolute Dogmatist) would send my father to hell. Based on Hick's essay alone, I'm not sure what the Interesting Theologian might have to say. My stance, based purely on God's primary characteristic - Love - is that something happens after death, after the spirit is stripped of flesh. Somehow an individual is able to become him/her self-essence. It is at this point that we are truly "saved." Salvation is a process which is only truly fulfilled after physical death. : : Where does this put me in terms of inclusivism or exclusivism? My Father loves me. He loves you. He loves my father. His methods are beyond my ability to perceive, but His love for me fills the cup of my understanding. My thoughts on this are that everyone will have the opportunity to know Jesus Christ as he is (or as much as our spiritual selves will be able to comprehend). Just like Aslan accepted the services of the young Calormen as unto Himself (The Last Battle - Chronicles of Narnia), so, too, I feel that Jesus has "last rights" to claim our souls... : : Jason * * * * * * * * * * : I think you're right. I don't see how we could expect anything less from a God who is truly Love. : Re: your quote from John, I think the Interesting Theologian would ask whether it is necessary to HEAR of Christ (or to make a decision for him. Some, having heard, defer making a decision because of their ignorance or because of the way the message was presented) in order to be saved by Him. In other words, could it be that Christ is saying merely that all who stand in God's presence will do so solely because of Christ's work? The Interesting Theologian expects Heaven to be populated with billions of Aslans. * * * * * * * * * * * * I have no time to pick apart all the views mentioned in Hick's article piece by piece, but I will take a stab at identifying the heart of the issue as it relates to simple me. If I seem to avoid the more intellectual issues, I apologize for my platitudinous banality. :-) I will not include the specific article quotes I am referring to; these should be apparent to those who have read it. I agree strongly with Jason's statement that "...His love for me fills the cup of my understanding." The mysteries of God's universal revelation, God's universal working in man, and God's final judgment indeed birth multitudes of hard questions which are unresolvable in this life. Nonetheless, I serve God and love God only because of the revelation of God to me in Jesus Christ. He is my center, my anchor, the root and substance of what I believe. However tolerant or accepting I may be of any other persuasion, I will always be decidedly Christocentric (though not fitting too closely into any of the predefined categories). I of course do not agree with the brand of modern "New Testament scholarship" (referred to in the article) which teaches that according to the newly discovered "Jewishness of Jesus," Jesus did not think of himself as God incarnate. If this were indeed true, it would perhaps change everything. But the "Jewishness of Jesus" (and of those he interacted with) is indeed instructive; it explains why numerous times he was nearly stoned for what those Jews who heard him him clearly understood to be declarations of divinity. If you want an accurate analysis of what Jesus communicated, look at the responses of those who understood what "Jewishness" was 2000 years ago. They speak more credibly than any modern scholar. Those who hated him for what he taught nonetheless made it clear what his crime was: making himself to be God. Those who loved him also made it clear that they understood and accepted this claim: "My Lord and my God" (Thomas). To recognize the divinity of Messiah and to accept Him as God's ultimate revelation IS necessarily to see any other revelation as "inferior" (not despised), but it does not necessarily imply that no real revelation from God has occurred. I speak not only of revelation within other religions, but revelation to Christian apostles and prophets as well. I will never embrace the words of Paul the Apostle with quite the same respect as the words of Christ Himself, but I do allow that the revelation Paul communicates had its origin in God (obviously). I can also allow for the possible God-origin of many other revelations outside of the Jewish faith and the Christian church. The purposeful intervention of God communicating and revealing himself throughout the centuries would be expected, if He indeed loves all men as we believe that He does. And so it follows that He would be working very purposefully to bring all who would have Him (as He is; not the church's depiction of Him) to eternal life with Him. This purposeful working of God in other religions does not degrade the ministry of Messiah, nor dispute His divinity, nor reduce the religion of His followers to an inferior level. On the other hand, neither does it imply that none but a Christian can experience any fullness of joy or purpose in the knowledge of God. Can some receive from Christ and yet not perceive Him as such? Perhaps... I do believe Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. I believe that the thoughtful expression (logos) of God reaching out to man is always Christ (if indeed it is God at all). I believe Christ is God; specifically, He is the manifestation of God reaching out and communicating with man. There may be many prophets, but only one was sinless, only one sacrificed Himself to secure my entrance, and only one rose physically from the dead. Are other religions inferior? Apparently so. But this "inferiority" does not mean the people are inferior, or less loved, or more certain of damnation; only that they were not the recipients of the most superior revelation of God. Can they find God outside of this Christ revelation, which is now perceived as the property of a too often judgmental, oppressive, compassionless Christian church? One is reminded of the Pharisee and the publican praying at the temple. The Pharisee expresses his gratitude to God, saying, "Thank you that I am not like other men...," and we are told that he was not justified in God's eyes. The Pharisee's statement may be a similar sentiment to, "There but for the grace of God go I." (Would we say this of a Muslim or Hindu? Hmmm...) The publican, on the other hand, beats his breast and says, "God be merciful to me, a sinner" and goes home justified by God. Why? (Notice that he did not appeal to the name or the sacrifice of Jesus.) I see 4 important things here: 1. Humility before God / no feelings of superiority We believe that the mercy of God to save us is Messiah (I AM salvation), and that by His sacrificial death and resurrection that mercy is imparted to us. If I didn't know (the truth of) the Jewish or Greek proper name of that mercy-man, nor of the specific actions that effected the impartation of that mercy, nor of the miraculous resurrection that testified of the efficacy of it (especially if the result of powerful cultural constraints), would my humble request for mercy from God be unheard? I think not. Pastor Steven
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FROM JASON:
FROM DAVE:
2. Realization of sinfulness and unworthiness before a holy God
3. Belief that God is inherently merciful; that He desires to show mercy
4. Willingness to ask for God's mercy (and accept whatever the ramifications of that gift will be)