Posted by John on December 17, 1999 at 07:49:54:
In Reply to: Re: hmmm... posted by anonymous by choice on December 17, 1999 at 01:00:27:
: : : : : : : : : : http://astro.temple.edu/~arcc/hick.html
: : : : : : : : : : "The Latest Vatican Statement on Christianity and Other Religions" by John Hick. Please read and give feedback, good or bad.
: : : : : : : : : Some feedback in bulleted form:
: : : : : : : : : - nothing new here really, This is just another of the essays from the non-literal, "liberal" interpretation of Christianity. There is much talk and writing in scholarly circles of this kind.
: : : : : : : : : - secondly while the Vatican , at least to my knowledge, is really trying to offer ADVICE in good faith for their parishoners in dealing with contemporary issues, what actually happens is most people read this as dogma to be accepted by good catholics, or as reason again to deny God and christianity in general as telling people what to think.
: : : : : : : : : - thirdly instead of waiting to the end of several thoughtful comments, why doesn't someone just go ahead and make a joke about farts or other crude matter now and save us all the time.
: : : : : : : : yikes! i hope there was a smiley-face intended after that! :-)
: : : : : : : : (oh.... i forgot.... christians aren't supposed to have fun.... *giggle*)
: : : : : : : : (is frivolousness close enuff to crude matter to satisfy you?) :-)
: : : : : : : Ephesians 5:3-4
: : : : : : : But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual impurity, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or course joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving.
: : : : : : : me- Guilty, convicted, trying to change. No smiley face intended.
: : : : : : yea, verily, and i say again, "yikes!"
: : : : : Think what you will. No one ever says anything about these sort of issues and people silently dissappear over them. We are Christians and as liberal as we like to think we are, there should be standards. I have said nothing that is not true and reasonable to anyone who claims to follow Christ. Nothing wrong with jokes, but they should be tempered and appropriate to the situation, not every thread needs to be turned into a joke.
: : : : : Nothing further.
: : : : Read Matthew 7:1-5. I do not claim to be a theologian or have extensive knowledge of the Bible, yet I take issue with your implication that if I do not find your statements "true and reasonable," then I must not be a follower of Christ.
: : : : I would like to point out some things about the earlier joking that you referred to. If you will go back and re-read the posts from the time you referred to, you will note the following:
: : : : 1) There was no INTENT to trivialize the discussion that was underway... I know that there was no such intent on my part; I was merely expressing my appreciation for the openness of the forum... I also know that this was not the intent of the others since they were the same people who were having the serious discussion and making caring comments.
: : : : 2) Even though one message part of the message thread dissolved into silliness (and yes, perhaps crudeness too), the serious discussion did continue in other threads, and the discussion was not killed as a result.
: : : : 3) At the time, Dave was new to the board, and I think he didn't know how long the board sometimes sits without anyone adding anything... so when he made a controversial post which, if I remember correctly, began with a statement that the Bible cannot be infallible, he thought that he had shocked everyone into silence, and I believe that he was merely asking for some response and reassurance that he didn't kill the board.
: : : : Unless I have missed something somewhere, the point of all of the discussions here is not to point fingers and say who is right and who is wrong, but to explore different avenues and beliefs and (dare I say it?) perhaps to find new insight. There are certainly at least as many people who silently disappear from groups where rigid unacceptance rules. I was raised in a religious environment wherein the group's views were forced down my throat. There was no joy whatsoever in their relationship with God, and their love was conditional upon whether I complied and withheld if I dared to question their belief system. No wonder I wanted nothing whatsoever to do with their religion or "their" God for years after I finally got away. What a blessing I think it is to have a place where people can express differing views and not be ostracized! What a celebration to be with people who take joy in their spirituality and are able to joke and have fun without fear of God striking them dead!
: : :
: : : ANONYMOUS POST DELETED
: : John does not have anything against Sunray or anyone else. It just so happens that the original comment was directed at no one and merely a pointed remark on my part to give others something to think about that had hit me hard as well. It was Sunray who felt it necessary to make snide remarks in response disguised under the smiley's and giggles. I have noticed lately that no one is allowed to take an active stance in anything. Christians as we refer to them are nothing more, in practicality, than a group of disenchanted people who have banded together under the tag of God. We blend in in attitude, style, and demeanor with any other secular or Godless group. If our God is real and we have committed to follow him as we claim to doesn't that necessitate some change from the former way of life? Can we truly be called Christian in the true sense if we continue to live as we did before while merely attributing to God the changes that could have very well been (and are in secular circles) accomplished through modern psychological understanding? (i.e. drug use, depression). I know for one that I can not live so dually. It seems as if we take what we want from God and keep the rest for ourselves. We are called to give our entire selves to God as living sacrifices. But of course I am unreasonable for saying so. Please note that i am not refering to ideals, but our lives in practice. I am well aware that we all know the right words to say and give mental acknowledgment to the truth of what i say.
: : In the controversial posts I have challenged actual life and called that into question. As I said before this is on the heels of an even harsher and shaking conviction in my own soul. Forgive me if i have been too blunt, but that tends to be my way, which is no excuse. I am in no way trying to dogmatize or restrict anyone and I was not calling anyones's salvation or faith into question. I look at myself harshly and assumed that others do the same. I merely spoke these realities to the forum, which was obviously illrecieved. I would suggest that anyone who does not question their own motives as harshly do so before jumping to the defensive. Can an individual (me) not pose direct and thought provoking statements to be considered in honesty without being viewed as accusitory? If this is the case I will not. But I only suggest that my statements be reviewed in this light. I do not ask for approval, for God will judge me, and I pray, convict me of overstepping if the need be.
: : Finally, i have placed myself on the block using no psuedonyms or euphamisms. Why do others hide under the anonymous label?
: ANONYMOUS POST DELETED
What?! Who has judged anyone? I just said that I was not doing this at all. If anything you are judging me. I have told you my motives in honesty and still you accuse me of being superior. Who mentioned anything about being persecuted? Cite what I said that makes you think so because I can't find it. Once more I say, I am only trying to live as God has called us to live... in real life and not just in acknowledgement. And then I thought lay out a hard statement for consideration. There is nothing wrong with this. It is done in church sermons all the time, even ours. It is a challenge for each to consider their own life and judge how they should live. There is no intent to judge. If what you say is true, then any pastor or Christian who says anything challenging is judging others? If that is the case then Paul and Peter were all judging others in their messages (and no I am not placing myself on their level, i cite them as men better than me that did the same thing). Why do you get so fired up at that? If I am in the wrong then someone needs to explain it and use your real name so I can respect who it comes from. It is easy to say such things when you don't have to face your accused! I know others are reading this, speak up and clarify please.