Posted by kat on September 13, 2001 at 19:35:50:
In Reply to: Re: Wake up call posted by john on September 13, 2001 at 11:05:36:
I DO agree with you John that's the real weird part, because I know it's easy to talk about a group of people and say "they are this" and they think that" blahlbahblah---
Then you meet them, I heard the guy from the Venice flight school today on the radio he said, "I didn't like one of the guys(terrorists), but the other was very likable." (paraphrased of course).
I say he is a maniac, but he probably is a thoughtful and intelligent human being. How scary that he could be like that to his own people and then do this unspeakable thing. I'm sure the voices in his head make sense and in the bigger picture, he really needs to know who God really is.
But, then I come back to who and where I am, I am an American I have always been an American and I don't plan on being anything other than an American until I die. You know of course I think I am more than that I am speaking for the intent of this discussion. So yeah, I realize our own governmaent does things that are criminal, I would just like to think that as a whole and beyond all the conspiracy stuff we are better.
Maybe not, I also heard about the Mosque that was protested, too.
i think I should appreciate my country and not take it for granted.
I think I "we" do need to be ever vigilant and watchful but, not that we should constantly worry. I think there is a time for everything, and this is a time for "us" to examine ourselves, not the security at our airports or whatever else. I think it's a wake up call for us to examine ourselves where we are spiritually, how we have let down our guard spiritually.
I know that people will question God "why" some people will thank God that they or someone they know is alive. Others will wonder if they should believe in God at all.
Trauma is either good or bad for the soul, i don't know about in between. If I am in shock for 2 days what about the people who were directly involved.\
I'm not sure what I am saying. I think without a sense of community we really wouldn't care what happened down the block. I want my country to be a great nation and a beacon of democracy to the rest of the world, but I also know that is just a dream some colonists had a long time ago.
The powers that be son't really want that, you know that.
Do you think this is a sign?
: I don't think that about you, I can't speak for everyone though ;)
: I think wake up call is a very good phrase. But what is it that we are waking up to? Here is where the real discussion begins... and in Chip's now famous phrase this is all just mental masturbation (meaning pointless self-stimulation) it won't change anything on it's own, which is the flaw of intellect. Unfortunately without it, many of the changes in ideas that we don't even realize would have never occured throughout time. So in that sense it is good. Which leads me to my discussion with Steve. Both of us have an understanding that comes with time and many such arguments. I am certain that neither of us views the other any less for them. It is just a function of our personalities to have heated arguments. So don't panic.
: AS for what we are waking up to? I speculate several things. One is definitely that this country is far from untouchable, which many think. At least for me, I think it wakes me up to how lax our federal government really is. I always held a more "conspiracy type" view that they new way more than we did... which may be the case. If it is, and they let this happen on purpose, then who is truly evil? But I doubt they had any idea. I think it is a function of the apathy and laziness of our culture to begin to let down our guard. But then, is remaining on constant vigil the way we want to live? I certainly don't, so maybe my last sentence is invalid.
: either way I also see the seeds of propaganda everywhere... even in your own post (not that I am free of it, I'm just making an example) Like we don't know that Bin Laden is a maniac as you said. This is American propaganda. He may be a very sensibe man who has seen such devastation of his people that in his own mind he has viewed the world as a battleground. He certainly has many followers, are they all maniacs too? I don't support terrorist actions. I don't even sympathize. I think they should be brought to swift end. But we must face the facts about our own views. Just as Russians were the enemy in the Cold War. These things are spun out of our collective national subconscious and there are always three sides to every story, yours, mine, and the unbiased truth. Do they really hate us as a nation and a people? How many of them have we actually talked to? I've never met a PIJ or anyone like that. All we know comes to us through the box on the wall, or the paper in the yard. These are very controlled sources. They can show what they want and spin things their own way. Do we arbitrarily trust a source like that to tell us the accurate truth? I'm not saying I disagree with you. I'm just using this as a very poignant example of our own cultural blindness. It is this blindness that scares me. Because in blindness we can do many things that may or may not be good. And we are talking about people's lives and world events with the potential to affect everyone of us.
: I feel for the people who were dragged into this. I feel for all of the people who were simply trying to live their lives that are now torn apart. But I'm still not so convinced that turning things into terms of the we's and they's is the answer. I'm sorry if this is unpopular, but I'm just not so much of a patriot. I feel for the people, the families... not the nation.
: Here is one of my favorite examples of how I feel.
: A young American man was talking to a poor old Mexican man. The old man said, "when we had the old government, they came and took my chickens as taxes and we went hungry. Then the revolutionaries came with Pancho Villa and they said, 'we need your chickens to support our freedom fighters.' and again we went hungry. Now you are here and you promise freedom and a good life if I support you, but still I have no chickens."
: : Now THIS is good. All this discussion.
: : I hope nobody thinks I am some ultra right wing patriotic who thinks the USA is the greatest nation on earth and not just that , but GOD's fovorite.
: : On the contrary, we are and have been a nation far away from God for many, many years.
: : I just happen to live here and want to see the perpetrators of this incredibly evil act brought to jsutice like Steve is saying. There are children, babies who will never see their dad or mom again. Parents who lost sons and daughters. Beloved friends are lost. People are seriously hurt and need intense medical care.
: : My post was practical in every sense.
: : Our country can not allow the people who did this to get away with it regardless of support from the international community.
: : Yes I love my country, very much, OK maybe I'm a bit of a patriot, i guess I don't know any better or should I say worse. I'm a New Yorker too, I could have lost someone in that horrible tragedy and so could any one of you.
: : Comparisons are going to be made people will be offended if they can't be objective, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't walk on eggshells my whole life trying not to say things that will offend people. So here it is, If it was this Bin Laden maniac it is holy war to him. We are the Great Satan to great number of muslims. We supported Isreal in becoming a nation thereby displacing the Palestinian people. They HATE us as a people and a nation. I do not advocate returning hate. I will not become predjudiced against them as a people. I will pray for the terrorists as well as the innocent palestinians and muslims(sp) who have been decieved by their leaders who perpetuate hate. This is part of history now and I hope everyone can learn from it.
: : I pray that Americans will heed this wake up call, and return to their God. I fear that will not be the case.
: : I could not think about anything else all say yesterday and the words "wake up Call echoed through my head all day. Strangley enough I awoke suddenly yesterday morning about 5am with an overwhelming need to pray and I didn't know for what. I think I do now. Even now what else can I do? Give blood, donate money for food and supplies. Fly your flag. I know, I said that already.
: : Let's not rip each other apart now, like I said it's time to come together, to mourn, to grieve, to reflect, and to pray.