Posted by jonvon on November 17, 2001 at 23:16:12:
In Reply to: Re: verses- help me find one or more posted by John on November 14, 2001 at 17:08:35:
: :: i guess your argument seems to center around accepting or not accepting the authority of an institution... again for me this whole authority thing just doesn't exist much. i think i tend to think more about the truth that sparked the revolution in thought that gave birth to the movement that solidified into the institution. i don't really care about what claims the institution or denomination or whatever makes. these claims to "ultimate authority" like papal infallibility or what have you just don't really add up to anything that makes a difference in my life at all. you know? i don't sit at home worrying about it, it just doesn't affect me.
: I understand this, but it does have a great impact on many people. I often listen to the Catholic radio station and they have many people who understand and who recognize things as you say, but there are many, both inside the organization and who call in that hang on the catechism and papal circulars like they are the very words of God. The way many political zealots hang on the dots and commas of the constitution. I've heard countless callers asking, "so as a Catholic am I allowed to beleive..." and, "I was just wondering what the official church teaching on ... is?" This is check-your-brain-at-the-door faith.
I don't think its necessarily "check-your-brain-at-the-door faith", i think it is very possibly an evolutionary process. for instance you said in an earlier part of this thread:
there is a tendency in human nature to say, "I don't want to think, just tell me what to do." Thus when an institution, either intentionally or by way of explaining things to form concensus, lays out something that becomes "doctrine" people check their brains and eventually they end up buying indulgences. In other words they quit trying to work on relationships and just follow the rules."If I go to mass and confess regularly I'm going to heaven." "If I go to church every Sunday and do my devotions every morning, I'm right with God" "If I boycott all aspects of the evil empire in our government, I'm bringing in the Kingdom of God." You get the idea.
when i was younger the first two of these three statements (uncannily) were fairly exemplary of some of my thoughts concerning my religious duty. i was actually quite concerned with such matters. this was an evolutionary place for me. i may have asked these questions somewhat early compared to other people my age. in general i am pretty much a late bloomer but in this area i was probably earlier than most. so i've moved past this kind of thinking, probably more than is healthy (i am wrestling a bit with what my current duties should be), but i think that it is a valid place to be. and it probably means that at some point in the future the person asking those questions will move on to deeper questions. you know? you can't solve quadratic equations until you have at least some of the rudimentary algebra down. also as a former and still somewhat closet catholic, i know from experience that these questions are not an avoidance of relationship, they are actually aimed at making a person's relationship with god more meaningful.
: All that we call "ways to experience God" i.e. worship, prayer, tongues, all of the "spiritual manifestations" are really more ways that God chooses to touch us in our foolishness. It makes no difference to Him how we get there because ultimately we are just children flying to the moon in a cardboard box.
i like this metaphor a LOT. very nice.
: Right on! I understand that the Eucharist may bring a sense of utter reverence and passion about in people and that many miraculous and healing things have been performed in association with it. But I defy anyone to tell me that when i sit under the oak tree with my bare feet in the dank earth I am having any less of a transcendent holy experience. I've tried to see what the whole sacred space of church was about. I've tried to meditate in the pews before the ornate statuary and all, but once the wonder at the beauty of it all wore off I found myself spritually dry as a bone, yet in the minimal natural landscape of a dirt lot with struggling weedy vegetation I can pray like a mystic! See for me the natural world expresses God best. But for others it's the pagentry of the Catholic church, for others the jibberish they recite in an agitated mental state. If any of it touches anyone it is because God did it and has nothing to do with the means.
cool. one of these days we've got to make it to europe. my mom was in england a few years back. she went into this church, it had been standing there for probably 400 years or more, not a huge cathedral but pretty big. she slipped into a pew and was looking at the tall stone walls and the elegance of the work and just generally digging on the vibe. suddenly from way up high came the voices of a boys choir. i can't remember if she said they were warming up or if the service was actually starting, but i remember she was totally in awe. there is something built into the ethos over there i think, and something built into those buildings that took generations to build. anyway one of these days i really need to see it. i would like the chance to worship god in a place like that.