Posted by john on November 20, 2001 at 07:43:56:
In Reply to: form boy speaks: was: brain checking........ posted by giveawayboy on November 20, 2001 at 04:54:21:
I love Bill because he Merlinizes everything I say. He sometimes takes things too seriously, but he never fails to return with a unified vision of how everything in the universe relates to it in a proper way. I hope I can always send my hottest flames to your castles Bill because most of them doesn't burn. And what does, you survey, then throw a rock at me for being such a prick. But ultimately you like me. Humans are pack animals. In a pack, we call them tribes, all members have a natural function so that the whole thing can work together. I think what Bill describes is that we are lucky enough to have gravitated into a loose sort of tribe. WE all agree on the mai nthings, but each of us serves a different function. This also fits the Body of Christ model.
: i'm a bit like bill in that i sort of see all things connected together. in a different way than bill though, bill seems to categorize things with a bit more conscious purpose. he makes actual drawings of things connected all together, he can tell you why this is connected to that and so forth. i do that too in certain areas, but mostly it is just everything is intertwined internally. in other words i see bill putting together these intricate mobiles of all these external objects, like the scientific names for fish and so forth. i do something that is somewhat analogous but in an internal, mostly unconscious sense. if i dig my toes into the sand i might feel something in the backs of my eyes. kinda sorta. i understand building models and prototypes; i do this sort of thing at work a lot. i tend not to do that though when it comes to discussions like these. as soon as we start getting into Point A, i am feeling it out in some cloudy matrix. out pops a thought or a feeling. as bill likes to say, something like this...
: it's mainly like this. I see the world as fallen, or in something akin to samsara (though not w every buddhist conclusion). I believe that appearances can be VERY deceiving, yet I believe in redemption, so I believe that appearances can also be well, redeemed. I guess what I am seeing is a purification of vision. It's like burning out our spiritual corona with lime and suddenly getting vision for the first time. To be true to John's comments on me, it's 'something like that'. Anyway, I believe that if we use the lens of reason or the lens of mysticism divorced from each other, we have committed the unpardonable sin. We need both, wed together, to see clearly. My job is to look at things (and it is Jonvon who is helping me learn it) and to say, Oh, Look at that! And, Hey! Look at how that looks like this! And hey! Look how that and this look like something inexpressable and skew! And hey! All this has everything to do with the Mystery who is the Omphalos of the Universe! As a Christian I conceive of this Mystery as God, more spec. the Trinity, directly revealed as Emmanuel. As a human I am free to be in wonder and awe and NOT have all the answers, so I make lists and draw diagrams of the magical spider webs I see around me. I have no idea why deer antlers talk to me, but they do. I have no idea why a dead tree branch preaches a sermon but it does. anyway, this is me, form boy, or whatever. I need to make it very clear, that ultimately the forms reflect and point to something. The forms don't exist in themselves. Although I do believe things are real, I am also more inclined to see them existing as parts of a dynamic whole. So, here I am somwhere between Plato and Buddha. I don't know if I could ever really be a Buddhist but I do lean toward some of what Buddhism teaches about inherent existence, but I'm still learning alot. All I know is that creation is bubbling out a message. Sometimes it is funky and klunks around. Othertimes it is magestic. But the way I take notation is visually. This does not mean I'm locking myself into the world of forms. It just means that I'm using a language to speak about something inexpressible. Jonvon, thanks for helping me understand more. Getting your perspective on me has been real helpful. What other people need to realize is that not only do we need form people like me, but we also need torch people like John Sexton or John McGee, who come along with a blowtorch and dismantle everything for us. They need to burn up paradigms. I see this so clearly now. People percieve these 'Johns' as a threat but that is their job--to burn up paradigms. They both know that if they keep burning whatever is actually true will only be purified or refined, but in order to do their jobs, even that knowledge is not their main focus--their main focus is burning YOUR little castles of thought that prevent you from the Truth. They also need us to help them burn down theirs, although, they seem to do a pretty good job of that too. Anyway, all that to say, thanks Jonvon, for pointing all this out to me. You are a lens through which I see myself as an artist more and more clearly. John McGee is a lens through which I see myself as a human, failures and all.
: : groove pants.
: Anyone who says this is a friend of mine! :)
: : this reminds me a bit of tantra. tantric saints seek enlightenment via experience. which is a foreign concept (at least in some senses) to the mystical model we are generally presented with in christianity. certainly our monks are seeking an experience, but it is an experience in which the instruments used in tantra (sex, alcohol, spicy food, whatever) are eliminated as completely as possible so that another kind of experience can take place. i'm not saying you are trying to be a tantric saint by any means, i just dig thinking about the similarities between things here and there.
: Talking to a friend the other day about Tantra was great since we both realized that it's less about sexual exercises, and more about the interrelatedness of all things. I guess it would be more about using things around us to transcend and attain rapid spiritual growth. I'm still not an expert here and most likely will not be, since I don't wish to focus on 'tantra' per se, but I think that you can already see the best ideas of tantra at work in the lives of holy people. In any case when you see certain terms from Asia imported to the U.S., i.e. tantra, feng shui, kama sutra, etc. you can almost bet that they have been lifted from a context and used as a marketing tool. I hate to say that. You will find many good books on tantra, but you will find many more bad ones, and the bad ones usually end up on the sex aisle. The good ones you might have to order, or if you're lucky they will be in the buddhist section, but still, even those might be a bit newfangled or cheesy. Believe me. I think for Christians who want to grow in the spiritual life it might be good to start by reading good Christian books. I do not recommend that we all go out and read a bunch of books about other religions. I think some people should though.
: Later, Bill