Posted by giveawayboy on April 10, 2002 at 22:06:24:
In Reply to: Re: vision of future posted by john on April 10, 2002 at 11:43:57:
: We are all starting to get glimmers of this woman rising up out of darkness. We are all called into her mystical train, to wed the Lamb and become his corporate bride.
: I get the distinct image from End of Evangelion where Rei rises out of the earth and then enfolds it into her hands while the crucifix image of the evangelion with the lance of longinus in his side hangs behind.
: I am convinced that the Church is a reality that is timeless for her bridegroom is the Lord outside of time who enters time and space yet is not contained by it. Therefore, sharing in his nature, she is not bound into time like some dispensationalists believe. She does unfold and grow organically throughout time. There are developments and blossomings forth which we can see in her within time. I guess what I'm saying is that while the whole world is focusing on some sort of Orwellian future, and while many in the church are despairing over the loss of our Christian identity, or the passing of Christian principles from the cultural consciousness, nevertheless the Church still exists. She is still kindling the sabbath candles for the world to enter into his rest. We who long for the Church of the future, need to rediscover the Church in her full glory, in her timelessness and original purity. I know you long for it, and so do I. The Spirit and the Bride say COME!
:
: A truly beautiful vision. I share it, but couldn't have put it so eloquently. The only thing I find about us is that we see the same thing from two different perspectives. Namely you see this all rising out of the existing church framework, while I see it as a movement that will rise from all over the world, some of course from the established "churches", but only as a remnant still clinging to the spark of real faith.......How funny that we see the same things but can't communicate them because our own words and ideas get in the way.
Well, I don't see it rising out of the existing church framework. In fact, I think she exists despite it. Remember, she is wed to the spouse outside of time and therefore has a quality of timelessness about her. I don't think of her as some future entity, or some lady who has been pushed into the mud only to be restored to her former glory. I believe she was there when the spear of Longinus pierced the heart of her groom. [powerful image in Evangellion by the way] I believe she was there in that blood and water flowing from his side. I believe she was there powerfully and visibly when the Holy Spirit overshadowed her at Pentecost. I believe she has been here ever since. She is not confined to existing church frameworks. Those are like wine skins, that constantly need replacing. That is why over the years there have been organic developments within and around her. The more she grows, the more she outgrows her clothes so to speak. What was fitting for her at the young age of 80 or let's say 100, might not be appropriate for her at the vigorous age of 300. Not knowing how long she will last in chronos time we have no way of guessing her true age. I'm not sure if we could compare her mystical life in chronos to an average human life. Also, wedded to her groom she partakes of kairos to some degree. She in some way shares in the redemptive mystery. This is not to say that the Body, apart from her Head got up on the cross and died for us, but it IS to say that she is WITH the Head and communicates his divine life to her according to his plan and the ambassadorship that he has irrevocably placed on her. I am no more suggesting that she rises out of an existing framework as I am saying that God rises out of an existing framework. It was God who descended to dwell in the Holy of Holies. He later descended to dwell in the holy virgin. Then he descended to live in us. She is a different mystery altogether though. She does nothing apart from him. In fact, to rediscover the vision of the Church as a timeless bride, is nothing less than picturing the Church as she exists in John's revelation of the Church in Heaven. To take it further, it's more of a revelation of her divine spouse, Our Older Brother Yeshua. Her glory is simply the overflow of his. Her beauty is simply the reflection of his. As she beholds her groom face to face, she is transformed into his image. We are all taken up into that. The glory of the Church is her spouse. Anything in an existing church framework will have to be tried by his loving gaze. Everything not purified by that fierce love will simply burn away. You mentioned something about traditions and dogmas. I would like to say this.
:I see this because to me the churches of today are largely dilluted and perverted human faccimilies of what the real "Church" is.
I can't agree more that churches today are diluted and perverted human copies of what the REAL Church is. But, how do we know WHO the REAL church is anyway?
:They are so full of tradition and dogma that has lost all connection to the spiritual truth which is its origin, save a disconnected rememberance in the minds of a few who read old books.
Who is this remnant, and which old books are they reading. I want to know. Also, what spiritual truth do you refer to. Just so I can understand better. I'm really not trying to be knitpicky here. I just need to know so I can understand you. I'm sure that the tradition and dogmas that have lost all connection with spiritual truth are different from those traditions and dogmas that agree with spiritual truth, am I right here?
:I think at some point Christians will be forced to choose whether they will accept the heritage that is in them, that they always knew deep in their meditations, or retain the superficial framework of broken pieces that they have archaelogically pieced into a system.
Wow! You sound like a Catholic! Anyway, I agree. I hope we do accept the heritage that is in us. What is that heritage John? For me it is rooted in God, and comes to us via the patriarchs, the prophets, the Lord himself, then his church.