Posted by john on September 04, 2002 at 10:51:04:
In Reply to: Re: Another Rant from Bob posted by giveawayboy on September 04, 2002 at 08:50:29:
: : I think we've hashed through this fairly well, and I do respect your view on things. As I said way back, I think that I could learn from your perspective. I think we both agree that over a few more generations, we can build a culture that is sustainable. I just have more fear that our time is too short, and less confidence in the gaia hypothesis that you mentioned.
: : But, I would be more than happy to be mistaken in these cases. :)
: : In any case, I'll try to pick up the book that you recommended once I am done with my current stack, and then I'd like to talk more and go explore the swamps with you later this year when I am back out visiting my parents.
: : Talk to you soon...
: : -Bob
: Well, it seems like this string is wanting to come to a close, but you guys had me on the edge of my seat the whole time. There are so many different jumping off points here, but instead of responding to them here (as the string is so buried in new posts already) I will most likely just refer back to this post in new posts, but for John's sake, I'll make sure to simply quote from this string and not just go right into my responses wout an introduction first.
: I want John to know that I read through the deep egology sites and the 'greenfuse' site that kicked off this string. I guess after reading all those things I could be some type of eco-spiritual guy. For me I would not go as far as some of the deep-eco people in terms of how I view man in relationship to nature. But, I won't qualify this now. Overall, I guess that I have always seen God or ultimate reality and nature as not divided. I see the way man has uprooted himself from his natural surroundings and I feel that this mirrors his journey away from religious faith of somesort. For me, being informed by the major religions and by Native American beliefs about man, God and nature, I see that we have lost our center and therefore have alienated ourselves from everything. We have bought into dissolution. I won't get all philosophical here. The things that are really on my mind are traditional 'medicine wheel' teachings, 'Hopi teachings' and some things I'd like to share on 'Christian environmentalism'. Yes! There are Christian environmentalists.
: Also, having a Catholic view on nature I see it wholistically and not divided. I see man and nature as brother and sister. In the classical Christian viewpoint, man is not to be the overlord, but the custodian of creation. We have fallen from that servant role. I believe the current no-care attitude of many Christians, when it comes to nature adn our planet, is a result of us not being Christian enough. If we were informed by our own religion here, we would be more apt to see creation as good. I think alot of Christians get lost in some kind of odd dualism here, spiritual =good, matter= somehow less important. Instead modern Christians tend to be just as lost and individualistic as the world system around them. We tend to buy into the same cultural errors (me included--until I become graced by awareness) that separate men from each other and the earth. In the Jewish/Christian vision we see man lovingly crafted from the earth. The Genesis account, whether literal (which I believe it isn't) or mythologoical, is no less true. We are lovingly fashioned and called good. And, we are sent back to her to 'name' or 'recognize' her. Then we are asked to live with her and cultivate her. When sin entered the picture, man became separated from God, nature and himself. Since then the Christian vision says that all creation is groaning waiting for some kind of vision of restored man. This is not saying that everything has to be man-centered and that somehow this automatically devalues creation. It simply indicates that the problem lies with man and that redemption can come through man. I believe Jesus is the prototype of this. Anyway, I don't mean to get into religon too much. I just want to say that the Christian view has a basis for environmentalism. I'm still sort of learning alot about nature right now. And my own eco-spiritual path is still being discovered, but this string has helped greatly.
: Thanks, Bill
You mentioned Christianity and environment and it brigs to mind this one song that grates me to the core. With an outlook like mine, you tend to be sensitive to the falshoods that they portray in modenr culture and media, so this drives me crazy. The song is by one of the groups which i feel epitomizes the classic moral American mainstream version of Christianity- 4Him. The song is about getting back to the basics of life, and it was obviously meant as an answer to those who seek to protct nature because it starts out by saying that "nature has it's needs, that's a lesson learned, but" then it goes into some moral philosophy crap. The thing is this is an absolute falsehood. The very fact that they make such an ignorant statement indicates that the lesson is FAR from learned!!! to me it is the height of the separatist Christianity you mentioned. What gets me the most is that most of modern Christianity listens and says, "yeah, that's right, they said it." Smug bastards!
It drives me INSANE!!! RRRRRRGGHHHHAAAAAA!! Sorry. And the Scott's commercials on TV! Good God!