Posted by j on May 13, 2003 at 21:54:14:
In Reply to: Re: A question of trust posted by Març on May 13, 2003 at 19:02:59:
M: ~what can I say? when I first came to Christ it would seem that way, immediate, and in some ways it was, some changes were inmediate, but I guess as God wants us to continue our personal relationship with Him, some things will take more time. So yea, the process is also continual, as we continue a personal relationship with Christ. In my experience I have gone forward and then I have gone backwards as well. Early on I had to take my cross, as I realized I would be different from other people, and my faith in Christ would drastically change my relationships with people I knew.
J - Well put.
M: How to deny oneself? I don't know, can take forms in different things in our life, perhaps continuing in our relationship with Christ means fighting against or denying what might get in the way at that moment, it depends on one's life and situation, it's not about legalism though.
J - ...and as we are beginning to see, this discernment (or pinpoint focus) does not necessarily happen when we expect it - or even when we think we need it!
M: Cross? many things I could think of as "crosses" in my life, I don't think I would need to make one up for myself, there's plenty everyday, many from my own failings, feelings, doubts, fears, etc. The thing is as J said in prayer everyday there is a sense that things may be muted, maybe as if these things are not as important, but they're still there, and those are crosses too, but I can take them and get through and take them up with Christ. we won't always feel like we're there when we pray, I think I know what you mean, despite what much of how, at least in my case, I thought or was led to believe, like if would be in this continual charismatic high all the time, but look at Jesus in LK 22:42 or better yet down to verse 44, as He was in agony, or look at Jesus on His cross in MT 27:46 or MK 15:34, I don't think he was just pretending there, but as Steve has pointed out in Parallel Universe, this was a man, a human being like us, and in His cross he felt as we would (and I know I would) in our crosses, i.e. perhaps in our doubts, mistrusts, fears, etc. etc. I think its only human, I think that's what Evangelical, channel 22 type christianity fail to convey to me in my first period of time after havingcome to Christ.
J - You are making a really good point here. Yeah! Jesus wasn't feeling some kind of "Charismatic High" when He was hanging on the cross! You know, they even offered him some wine when they first hung Him and He refused it (not the vinegar afterwards) - He was definitely not pretending! - He felt every ounce of pain... not even to mention the fact that He was forsaken (there's so much!). Anyway, it would make sense that we would feel forsaken from time to time... this is the foundation of our faith...
But perhaps in those moments in our crosses, perhaps then is when we are close to the man/god Jesus, who was a man as Steve has been incessantly pointing out. Again in MK 8:34 also says to come after Him take up our crosses, and deny ourselves, correct me if Im way off Steve, perhaps as Jesus was on His cross, he denied himself, since he did not talk back to those who said "if you are the son of god, then come down from the cross" (Im badly paraphrasing), yea with his divinity he could have saved himself and come down from the Cross, but he denied that continued on the cross, for our salvation, according to the will of the Father, as I already mentioned Jesus prayed before hand.
J - I can only imagine what it was like for the disciples to (presumably) know what manner of death they would die. Does God offer some kind of special presence, peace, or "anointing" when this is happening? What if you knew that you would die in the mouth of a Great White Shark?
M: But anyway, now I don't where Im going with this, but I also point out 2Cor 1:5, so as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds by Christ. and actually the verses that surround that are pretty cool also.
: Finally, I'll just say Im rite there with Ryan also, on that yea, we got the body also, your not alone, if I can help you in some way you can call me, seriously, you have done a lot for us, it would only be right to reciprocate it, you are loved.
: Març I
Thanks Març,
J