Posted by Andy on December 08, 1999 at 08:56:10:
In Reply to: Re: Homosexuality as a "genetic" trait? posted by Pastor Steven on December 08, 1999 at 01:21:44:
: : Here is my two cents.
: : (First got to give my shout-outs) Howdy Bill, Steve, Martha, and anyone else that I know or who knows me.
: : How can we consider the fact that homosexuality is genetically inherited.
: : God states that homosexuality is a sin.
: : God also states that he made us and knew us in our mothers womb.
: : If both of those statements are true, then homosexuality must be a result of something that occurs after birth. Would God be justified in "making" a person a homosexual, then condemning them for that over which they have no control?
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: Hi Skip! Thanks for posting! Here's my two-cents worth:
: The law states that a rebellious child should be stoned. Aren't we all born rebellious? Did God make us that way? According to the reasoning above, He would have had to. Then would He not be unrighteous to command stoning? (I will not answer these questions; the point is simply a little Socratic method to test your thesis.)
: People are "made" with all kinds of problems at birth. Did God then make the problems?
: People are born in sin. Did God then make the sin?
: Regarding your statement "Would God be justified in "making" a person a homosexual, then condemning them for that...", God doesn't do either:
: God originally made us pure, but we embraced corruption. Since then, we have been born in it; after many thousands of years, the careful observer may conclude that we are born in many different varieties of it.
: God has not condemned us for our sins, rather He condemned His Son Jesus for them, so that we could have the righteousness of God ascribed to us. He did not, however, stop us from being born sinners, nor stop the continuing effect of sin on us and on our society.
: We are a product of BOTH our heredity AND our conditioning. I see this clearly in myself, and in those whom I have known well. We bear character traits that are clearly heredity, and we also bear those which are the result of childhood conditioning (and to some degree, post-childhood conditioning). The exact percentage of each cause responsible for a particular effect in our makeup (like homosexual orientation) will vary greatly, to be sure, but both clearly exist.
: Our sinful state has evolved considerably since Moses' time, I suspect. True, the root nature is the same, but the complexity and variety of the effects have translated into all kinds of inherent hereditary dysfunctions that were not yet specifically manifested nor identified in the time of the Torah, nor even yet in the apostle Paul's time. Consequently, they are not specifically addressed biblically.
: To use the Torah's commands regarding homosexuality or Paul's reference to the men of Sodom to disprove hereditary influence is just plain bad scholarship.
: (Just one more opinion; not to be taken personally. Hope that's OK!) :-)
That's perfectly fine, I posted my opinion and that is what the board is for right? 8)
I reply to your statements Steve: You say that we are all born into corruption. I define that as being born of sinful flesh. But was not Christ born of the same sinful flesh? Did he not suffer the same temptations as you and I? If Satin didn't think that he could tempt Christ into sin, why did he try so hard? Christ was an example to us. For Him to be a proper example, wouldn't it be HAVE to be possible for us to be like Him? (This is a question not a statement)If we could conceivably keep all of the laws as Christ kept all the laws, couldn't we be without sin ourselves?
Now I am not sure if I am treading on shaky ground there theologically, but to me it makes sense. So in effect, "God originally made us pure, but we embraced corruption", to use your words. To me, the "embrace" is the key. We choose to sin, I choose whether or not to cut some guy off, I choose whether or not I LUST after an attractive woman, or hate my Christian brother for an imagined slight against me. Am I correct?
You said, ": People are "made" with all kinds of problems at birth. Did God then make the problems?"
Are you referring to disabilities or problems of a sinful nature? If it is disabilities, then Yes, God did make them (as you surely know). If it is of a sinful nature, I say again, how can God be justified in creating someone with sin and then condemning them for it.
That would be like me buying a dog that I know chews stuff, then shooting him dead when he does. Maybe that analogy is a bit off, but I think that it is the principle.
Just as a little reminder, I want to say again that I have no problem with homosexuals. It is the sin itself that I am discussing.
So take that. en garde....lol (just joking of course)
Andy