Posted by John on June 26, 2001 at 14:09:01:
In Reply to: Re: Way Marks posted by jason on June 26, 2001 at 10:28:36:
: (This is snipped hardcore) : (John's Reply:) : : I don't think you were posting this to ask for answers, it is obviously a dialectic of sorts, and you are very good at it. So since it impressed me, I wanted to offer my impressions. : -- John, I felt good as I read this - that you could get so much out of it. I want to clarify something, though... I wasn't intending the statement as a dialectic -- I was posting my ideas on a particular issue that came up in my life, and my thought process in understanding it. (I hope I didn't just lower your impression of me ;-)... : : Mainly they turn toward what my experience would indicate the mass response to be. I have learned that many peole are so unused to dialectic learning (this is the fault of our school system) that they take such musings to demonstrate a lack of faith, or else if they resonate with the logic, they take it as a system to be followed like a recipe for descision-making. : -- I completely agree with this statement, and this is not at all my intention. I fully appreciate the value of "dialectic learning," and I love looking at things from the alternate perspective(s). Because my post was straightforward, in that I put together a formula of sorts, the focus was not on "...do this, do this, and do this, and you'll know God..." but more of "...this happened... what do I do now???" I didn't plan to write steps or anything else for that matter, I merely sat down to write about a moment where God made Himself visible to me in my life. : : So with this interpretation in mind I make my impressions, knowing full well that many actually get what you said, and not in the least impuning what is a refreshing breath of "good logic". : : We must be carful not to try too hard to "figure out" signs, assuming as you did that one knows what signs actually are, and how to see them. I think often the flaw we run into is one of basic paradigm. : -- As I read these two sentences, I am beginning to realize that I must not have used the correct description for my experience. I used my definition for "sign" to apply to the situation, and what I'm reading in your response (in context of your interpretation as dialectic), is that my "sign" is actually more of a "spiritual verbalization" -- more like God saying, "Hi there!" or "Watch out!" Perhaps this sheds a bit more light on the nature of my post. I was not claiming to know what I was talking about... I was more rambling about something I know nothing about, hoping that I would stumble across an answer. Unfortunately, this is how I live my life, and as I get older, I realize how little I actually know -- especially when it pertains to spiritual matters. : -- So, maybe it wasn't a sign... or maybe it was -- maybe a sign isn't a rare, white elephant that only appears once a millenium. In my head, signs are rare and elusive, but are within sight if we open our eyes. Perhaps I'm simplifying this whole thing when I use the obvious comparison, but I think of road signs. If I know where I'm going, I don't really need to pay much attention to which roads are which. If I am in a new place, I pay close attention and watch for any indication of where my turn might be. The dangerous situation, which we all want to avoid is: I'm trying to avoid is assuming that I know where I'm going when I actually don't. In this example, I'm lost, and I'm not even looking for direction. : : Where we see God at a distance trying to communicate with us. But consider this paradigm, that God is not distant, but physically right next to you. Obviously this is a reduction in the scope of what God's presence is, but as limited creatures we must find ways to accuratley represent God in a way that we can grasp. so anyway, suffice to say that he is beside us. : -- John, you are exactly right. We must narrow the scope at times to conceptualize Him. The great thing about this is that the scope can be set however we need it. It isn't a "micro"scope or "tele"scope or even Bill's "kaleido"scope -- it is an "every"scope. In my sign story, I imagine Jesus posting signs on a road that represents the progression of life. He has drawn up maps, painted street lines, hung traffic signals, and planted mile marker after mile marker - after all, He is the Way. As I live life, I can stop and study his handiwork, and admire each millimeter of paint on the road as he has lovingly created, mixed, and painted each perfect, beautiful line. I could even sense his love just by admiring the paint as I take each step. Or, when I drive in my car, I can see a sign, and realize that he knew, even as he planted the sign and my grandparents weren't even conceived, he knew that I would one day be driving down this road and see His sign, and it would remind me that I am on the right road, or that I need to turn left up ahead. : : Then the sign takes on a vastly different intention. Still love, but rather than a distant compass, it becomes a lover's flower picked moments ago and thrust before his beloved's face as a sweet gift to say, I love you. Also in this metaphor, no one upon recieving such a gift drops to their knees and prays to the lover in thanks for the gift, but instead turns to face him and throws arms around in embrace. I think it is extremely important for all of us to constantly remember that if we feel distant from God it is not God who has moved. He is as everpresent at our side as He always was. Making our metaphors reflect this, (and all conceptions are really metaphors,i.e. "I see it this way...") makes us more aware of His presence and less prone to feel alone. When we are sad He is there. When we are sinning he is there as well. And when he thrusts a sign before our eyes I feel that it is more of a reminder that he is exactly there with us at that very moment, if we would only turn and see Him. : -- You speak Truth! In connecting your statement with mine, He is there in the car with you as you go, and He was there thousands of years ago sweating as he planned the location of the sign, built it, and posted it. My initial response is to turn to Him with a smile and say, "Perfect timing, as usual!" : : Think of the implications then of saying the "prayer of salvation". If you actually said, "Jesus come into my life..." you just invited him to be beside you. Imagine what this implies... He is never going away! Ever! He is constant beside you. You don't have to 'find him', you can't get 'further away' or 'closer'. All of these common words present a paradigm of distance. All you can do is get to know him better or ignore him. As David said, "If I make my bed in the depths of sheol, you are there." : -- I can see your point when you say that my words can imply a "paradigm of distance." Unfortunately, with spirituality, we have to (in your words) narrow the scope a bit to allow our creature minds to grasp heavenly concepts. I don't mean that Jesus is not there, or He left for a lunch break (<- my feeble attempt at humour!) -- He *is* here, there, and everywhere... always. Perhaps in this example using words that indicate a spatial relationship were not appropriate... I must confess, though, that one of the most lasting spiritual concepts of heaven that I carry with me was birthed from the reading of one of the last chapters in the last book of the Chronicles of Narnia, The Last Battle. The name of the chapter is "Further Up and Further In," and this was a cry of triumph as the animals ran with lightning speed further up and further in to Aslan's country. : : Also as a corrollary, we often speak of "wilderness experiences" Well, I think that MORE often we have sent ourselves into the desert rather than actually experiencing a time where God hides his face. : -- Again, I cannot (nor do I have a desire to) refute your statements or your logic. This is very true... I can't count how many times I have felt that I should "walk on water" to prove my faith to myself or God. The subsequent disappointment is adequate enough for several months of dark poetry and moping before God, in His infinite grace, pulls me out of the muck. But, there are times, I have felt, that to better fully see His face, I must take a step back. Sometimes that step puts me in the desert, but I know that there are consequences for this, and it is not a regular occurence. : -- Now please don't read sin into this -- that's not what I mean at all -- I'm referring to looking at things from another point of view. For example, there are those who believe that God doesn't care about them at all. They think that He has forsaken them in their moment of greatest need (hence the popularity of that lovely "footsteps" wall hanging - available at my website for the low, low price of $29.95 or three easy installments of $19.95). As a lover of Christ, I could not imagine Him turning away from anyone at that time... but I realize that this belief is based on a perspective -- not Truth. So, I do a little mental role playing. I'll go to the pier and watch the sun set, and "pretend" that in my times of need He wasn't there. Then I think about how I feel, and analyse myself, my mood, my tendencies. This constitutes an intentional voyage into the desert. : -- I can definitely understand why people feel forsaken. I can almost taste the sandy, dry heat in my mouth. I am eternally grateful that He has surrounded me with such love and security that I am able to take these little "trips" and more deeply explore the reaches of His touch. It is at the furthest extremes of my journeys that my compass most needs to function in a manner that I understand. I am grateful that I understand that these "signs" (again, our definitions of this word seems to differ) to be "indications" of direction and focus. I NEED that... I believe we all do. This is why I wrote my email, and why I chose the words I did... : John, I don't know what it is, but you have a way of really pushing me to think deeply about my words and how I come across. I am very grateful that I know you (even though in a limited sense), and that I trust that you can truly catch the spirit of sincerity in my ramblings. I have never felt attacked by the words you speak, and I want to clarify that I don't feel that way now (even though I'm sure you understand that). Thanks for all your replies, and thank you for making me a deeper, and perhaps, stranger person... : : Jason Thank you my brother for your kind words. And to the public I was not trying to counter Jason's logic, only present a different metaphor to prevent the propensity to say, "yeah that's the way it is." and end up in a system that is limited. The beauty of God is that He can be equally true and present in a multiplicity of conceptions (not to be confused with universality of faith, which is another issue entirely.) In short i say, "that's it" to Jason and "it is also this" Even though they may seem opposite. Jason, i love your head. You are more spiritual in your confusion than you may know. I look forward to eternity with the likes of you.
: : : What is a sign? Specifically, what is a sign when taken from the context, "Signs and wonders" ?? And what are we supposed to do when we feel that we have experienced one?
: : : A sign is a communication from God, i.e. God wants to tell *me* something. The sign is the actual transmission.
: : : Obviously, the core reason for any such contact is love.
: : : The next piece of the puzzle, I am beginning to believe, is to study the transmission itself. How did He communicate to me?
: : : Interpretation is the hard part.
: : : I guess the final step is action.
: : : I draw comfort from the example of David.
: : : I'm still learning how to read my compass. It doesn't function like a traditional compass, although it is similar in navigational terms. We all have these compasses... mine might be a spider's web, Bill might have a shiney, brass kaleidoscope, Steve might be carrying a jar full of immortal lightning bugs -- but, the intention of each is to point out "True" North.
: Love and Rocks (and lights for Bill)