Posted by jason on July 26, 2001 at 19:31:36:
In Reply to: Re: Stepping in late in the game posted by John on July 25, 2001 at 22:35:55:
Just for fun, I did a word count of your reply (including my original message) -- 2,006 words!!!
I'm going to reply in-line...
: As always beautifully written.
Thanks John -- Your compliment makes me blush...
: I love the internet because you don't have to necessarily be jointed in your thinking.
What!! Are you saying that I'm disjointed!! Your insult makes me rage!!! Oh wait... you probably meant something else... sorry...
: Anyway, I don't know what comes to your mind when we described our brief desires, but I definitately am not going to stand around and "witness" or preach to people. I can't do that.
Me neither... I guess the image I had was a couple people walking around with a desire to help someone, and eventually approach a person and say, "Hi." After the initial greeting, see where it goes. I've done this in "groups" before, and I see total validity in it. We would actually walk around and talk to each other, but also silently pray for the lost that were all around. I think this is much more effective than carrying a sign, cross, bible, etc. and "preach." I don't know you well, but I definitely didn't think that!!! I guess I wanted to share my thoughts and hopefully give you something to think about from another direction. I eventually got to a point where I was going out with one friend, and we would hang out and talk to people we knew, or people we met in certain circumstances (i.e. a person would pull out a cigarette next to me and I would be "Johnny-on-the-spot" with a lighter before they could dig one out (make sure to bring the lighter). Usually, the person would be grateful, and if they were interested, they would ask me why I did it. This is something that I would do anyway -- not just to get into a conversation -- I usually have a lighter on me, and I think it is a nice thing to do. The conversation just happened to be a by-product.
After that, I would just follow the conversation as it happened, agenda-free, and eventually part ways with the person. A couple weeks later, perhaps, I would run into that individual again, and a friendship develops. I have a good friend now that is now comfortable talking to me about how God plays an active role in his life. We talk about God, but we also talk about relationships, cars, and all kinds of other things. It got to a point that we would go out and meet more people. We started calling ourselves "shepards."
: In fact apart from that i have no earthly idea what i would do. I just want to make myself available. To have God use me. The trick for me will be to be there and not end up just forgetting about everything else because it makes me uncomfortable and having a private good time. This is what has happened in the past.
I know what you mean, but I believe true sincerity happens when you put certain feelings aside. What I mean is, if you aren't worried about having a "private good time," you aren't carrying that worry with you. If you feel that it is "wrong" to have a good time when taking those steps, then there are two things to be honest with yourself about 1) Should I feel "wrong" in this situation? 2) Am I the type of person cut out for ministering in this sense? There are many other questions to ask, but this should get the ball rolling. (Please remember that this is purely opinion, I am blind, and I sin)...here goes...
For me, it starts with having a good time. I put myself out there and "hang out." I think that SOME Christians take themselves out of the game because of the thought that if you "forget" about your "prime directive," then all is lost, and you have fallen short. I don't think that I can be any good in a situation if I don't know it from the inside out. I go in with the intention of "learning the scene" and hope that something will come of it. Then I go through a period where I leave the scene for a while, and when I come back, I find myself in situations mentioned above. This is me, and I am COMPLETELY willing to allow God to change my mind about myself and my mentality, but in my prayers and studies, I have only felt His peace. I admit that I could be deluding myself, and often I pray that if this is the case, that God will open my eyes. Ultimately, He knows how I feel about Him, and I know how He feels about me, and I feel very secure in that relationship. I also know my limitations. There have been occasions where I have stepped out of bounds, and found myself in the penalty box. I accept this as part of the growing process, and move on -- avoiding the foul line in the future.
: I personally am not easily offened by non-Chiristians doing their non-Christian things, so it is easy for me to just have fun there. I guess I agree that people who have problems with it shouldn't be there and all that. Truth is I don't really know what I'm saying right now, i'm just hoping something will come out of it. so all of the above may be worthless drivel.
It's all good stuff. You are aware of how you feel about something and you are not afraid to talk about it earnestly. I said this in my reply -- the desire is good, but your efforts should be tempered with pure, honest, painful Truth. Explore your feelings, and let your mind wander... listen to the drivel... dig for gold...
: I guess my understanding is this. I have a deep love for the people who are completley lost. for those who know they are screwed up and just don't have a clue what to do about it, so they get into whatever seems to bring them some relief. When I am with these types of people I have this penetrating sadness and joy at the same time. I love them deeply even though they have no concept of what this means. It makes me want to be around them.
Something to think about -- when you are having a good time in the midst of the lost, do you lose that deep love? Not if it is sincere (I believe it is). What does that deep love do when you are there? In my case, this love makes everything look different... everything. Imagine that you are a vampire. Imagine how different your life would be if you had the strengths and weaknesses of a vampire. If you stayed out too late, and the sun came up, you'd be toast -- do you think you would stay out too late? I remember a line from "Blade" where Frost (young upstart vampire) said something along the lines of the human race being their food. He didn't see people as people, and when he walked the streets, he saw through people. Guess what, as Christians, we are made privy to a deeper Truth about ourselves and others ("We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but powers and principalities, and spiritual wickedness in high places"), so we know. We also know that through Christ we can do anything. We are operating from a completely different level. Even if you are having a good time, this understanding doesn't go away. Then, when you find yourself in the right situation, He reveals something to you. When this happens, the inside of my head feels like a cathedral! I can feel the stained glass colors swimming through my mind! At that point, you just act, whatever the situation calls for...
: I want desperately to start spilling my thoughts about God and redemption and what I see in them but I know that if I try to express it they will stare at me blankly and have no clue what i'm talking about...
Perhaps this is true... if you speak directly. I find that I speak directly to a situation, but use more general terminology. You have to relate to a person where they are, but you also have to know the subject matter. Every situation introduces a new set of challenges, but the best way to begin communication with another is to find a frame of reference within the context of an interest. This takes a genuine interest in another -- genuine (see also: pure, honest, painful sincerity). If you have this genuine interest, then learning another's interests is easy, especially when you have initiated a conversation. Again, this is me, and I'm sure that at times I have come across as quite annoying...
: but then maybe this is just my flesh, I say. Maybe I should just start spilling it and God will touch the one who's ready to hear it. Maybe that is what I'm supposed to do. But then I don't.
I think of a story that I heard about a woman that went to a drugstore and God told her to speak to someone there. She did, and everything turned out exactly right, etc. etc... Three stories:
1) Before I accepted Christ into my life, I was in a situation where I actually said His name in a vulgar sense in response to an intense (and "diabolical") situation. When I made that statement, I realized that I had just realized the answer -- He literally spoke to me through my own words when I "insulted" Him. I followed through with my realization, and in a sense, accepted His guidance (for that situation - it wasn't until a few years had passed before I was ready to truly accept Him).
2) I worked at a place with a guy. We spent our free time at clubs trying to hook up with the ladies (I was, and still am, quite the dork). Anyway, one day he started talking about God and Jesus and the sacrifice and sin, etc. He ended his statement with, "...you know what I mean?" I said that I didn't, and he proceded to share the gospel with me. I subsequently accepted Christ (a week or so later), and his life turned around as well. After a while, we talked about that conversation, and he said that he had been fighting it for the longest time -- God was speaking to him and directing him to talk to me. My friend finally gave in, and the rest is history.
3) My mother was driving to North Florida to visit some of her friends. She stopped at a rest station because the weather got bad. She met an older couple and joined them for lunch. It turned out that they were heading the same direction. They got along pretty well, and they were going to "caravan." As they sat there and talked, the man had a heart attack and died. Right there in front of my mom. She had no idea who these people were, and she ended up driving the woman to the hospital, and spent half of her vacation comforting her until her son was able to get there.
These are three extreme stories that have a common thread. When the time hits, be ready and act -- until then, prepare. Think of the returning bridegroom -- don't forget your oil... think of the theif in the night -- double-check that everything is in place... You WILL know when the time is right. If you miss it, then you will learn. The only method to get this is to put yourself in the way.
: It's easier to go to a movie, or hang out with friends, or even if I get among the lost, it's easier to just to turn inward and just enjoy myself. And it is easy for me to block out others so that I look unapproachable. I'm a loner by nature and it comes with the territory. I really have no idea how to go strike up a casual conversation with a stranger. it goes against all of my childhood training, "don't talk to strangers" and all that.
Right on, John. There are millions of people that are turned off by people like me -- I am loud, I give big hugs, I make goofy jokes... you name it. But there are millions of people that understand a guy like you: gentle, intelligent, and quiet. I know that if you spent some time "having fun" in a place, and nurtured an interest in people around you, whether in a club, coffee house, or on the street, that opportunities will come up. This could mean something as non-intrusive as prayer, or as outlandish as a heated debate over the tastiest doughnut.
: I guess basically I'm just saying that I'm human. I'm just like everyone else. I just want to do more. Kat's post gave me hope that I'm not the only one who wants to do more, or rather I'm not the only one who feels sick at their own apathy. (as everyone WANTS to do more, they just ignore it). I don't really want to make a ministry out of anyone, i just want my friends to be the people who need Jesus.
When I think of my close friends, and I had to categorize them based on their belief system, I would say that there is a fairly even "blend" of Christians and non-Christians. All these friends know where I stand as far as my beliefs go, and I know where they stand. One friend in particular has no respect for Christians in general, but he respects me. I haven't laid out the plan for salvation (i.e. the Roman road or any equivalent), but I have been there for him in good times and bad. I know that when the opportunity comes, I will act, and if the opportunity never comes, the burden is out of my hands. God knows that I will not force anything -- I believe that this is a lesson that He taught me. He know that I am ready to speak, but I have put the burden on Him to initiate. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and He will direct thy paths." I pray for my friends, and I am ready.
: did you know that the church in America is really not growing? Not surprising I know, but mostly all of church growth is just transfers from one church to another. I don't want to sit around and be droned to sleep. I want to be among those who need the love that I have and the God that I know. I have debated going alone many times, but I would prefer company. so that is my thing.
Sadly, this seems like an accurate description of the church today. I know that there are people out there excited about God and are out telling everyone about their new experiences. I've done it, and it felt good. I am no longer in that place -- I am thrilled when I see it, though, just like I am thrilled when my son runs around the room and dances. The joy is so overwhelming that you can't ignore it. This is how we feel when we first come into the fold, but just like everything else on this planet after sin was introduced, that joy fades. It is the everlasting Spirit that resides within us that bubbles that joy from unknown depths, and perhaps I am taking another side to my statements, but we are responsible for keeping that well clean. We can't allow ourselves to get bogged down in our sins -- this keeps us from getting "it." How do we combat these ills? Communion with God, and active response to his prompting. The "Church" will never grow unless its members continue to fight.
: But another thing, and I don't blame anyone because I'm no better, I have tried to organize things like this, but everyone calls it forced and it never works. Last year, or two months ago if Kat said that, I would have jumped on it and had the whole thing organized by now, who was going where and when and what we were going to do. not because I wanted to control it, but because I wanted desperately to seize the fleeting ambition I saw in others and make it a reality for all of us, mostly myself. But this only results in me feeling abandoned and angry at others who will back out or not show and myself for not doing anything even though they back out.
This last paragraph reveals quite a bit. Do you realize how brave you are to make these statements in a forum for all the world to see??? Just for a moment, look away from the issues you are dealing with... Do you recognize the seedling that is alive in you that allows you to speak with such candor and honesty? Fertilize that thing, man! Give it sunlight, give it water... grow, baby grow!
: Recently though, I have begun to see my own foolishness. My own striving. I don't think I can do it anymore. I just have to be what i am where I am and listen to god leading me to do what he wants and not what i want. I don't think I was running in a different direction from God, but I was definitely jumping the gun. He would say, "Go..." and I was already running in what I thought I knew was the direction before He could finish his sentence. Like the dog who chases the ball that you faked to throw and ends up standing there going, " I know it was coming this way, where is it now?" Not that God is tricking me, but you get the image.
Don't lose the willingness, just learn how to watch the ball. I was talking about Joy before, and I think that I might sometimes confuse Joy with Zeal (even in the example I gave of the new Christian, but I really need to finish this, so I'm not going to edit it, of course I would've saved all this typing if I had, but hey...). Anyway -- I think I do. The dog who takes off when you rear back to throw the ball might be joyful because he's playing with his buddy, but his zeal causes him to alter the game. I might've been planning on throwing the ball another direction, and because he took off, I have to throw it so that he can see it. I think God's motives are the same with us -- He starts to rear back and we take off, and He's like, "But I was going to throw it in the water because I know how much you love to swim." In some cases, He throws it to us where we sit, but the beauty of the "dog-ball" dance is when you are in complete synchronization and your dog knows by how you throw exactly where he needs to be to jump up and catch the ball.
I hope something here made sense...
Jason