Posted by john on September 12, 2001 at 06:36:14:
In Reply to: Re: God Bless America posted by Pastor Steven on September 11, 2001 at 23:23:51:
Whoa, wait a minute! This is another case of mistaken interpretation. I wasn't trying to martyr-ize the issue. I agree totally that the whole situation was a criminal act and that the perpetrators should be brought to justice. The main body of my post was about NOT buying into the propaganda of this country being the greatest on earth or special in relation to the others. It was a caution AGAINST using Christianity as a cover for nationalistic revenge. I mean to warn against the dangers of villifying entire nations and races, against starting all-out war because of the these actions. Refer to my examples of the coworker and the Japanese lady. I mentioned martyrs onyl as an example of true Christian love displayed even in what was obviously an offensive situation. The martyrs did nothing to deserve the treatment they recieved and yet they sang in prison, they preached to their captors and they worked to help their enemies. Even now in the middle east there are Christians who aid muslim refugees after the so-called Christian, or Jewish forces destroy their cities.
My point was to remind people that our duty is to God first, not our country. It is very easy to confuse the two in the wake of such tragedy. This is NOT a holy war, that was my point. The martyrs didn't fight for their cause, they allowed God to work his will and they praised him for it, submitting to their leaders and understanding that the true order of the universe lied far beyond national politics.
Do I feel for the victims? Absolutely, I cried yesterday and that is a unique thing for me. Do I think the government has a duty to find these killers and bring them to justice absolutely. But this justice must be just that. Just, and supported by the international community. This is just the kind of instance that could lend enough support to carry the US into war, even against the consenus of the international community... and the result would be much greater devastation and loss of life, over what? Revenge. The President's comments on retaliation greatly disturbed me. Would it not have been better to call for justice and take a higher road rather than appeal to the mass indignity? I feel reasonably certain that this nation will folow a prudent course, and that the comment was aimed at appeasing the outrage of citizens at the moment, but we need to remember that America is not arbitrarily God's holy elect country and just because someone commits a heinous act in it doesn't mean that God will respond with full force of armageddon on the perpatrator any more than he does when the same thing happens in Northern Ireland, or Pakistan, or Tanzania.
My post was a plea against the Holy American crusade which many may feel they need to take up. Terrorism is horrible and should be stamped out, but why is it that this country doesn't get so outraged when a bomb kills thousands in Israel? Because it isn't us. This is wrong and this is the danger of nationalism. If it is okay to let it slide then, why is it right to annialite and villify now? Because of national borders? That is silly. We as Christians are called to live according to God's justice and he WILL affect it. But that is not for us, as Christians to determine. We HAVE to love, help to heal, and ultimately forgive.
I understand your remarks Steve. But that isn't at all what I meant. I know you didn't mean it this way, but just because it wasn't an attack on Christianity or our ideals doesn't excuse us from the call to love our enemies and to forgive. Ultimately nothing will bring the people back. And nothing will be gained from hatred. I know this isn't what you meant, but someone may have misinterpreted you, as they may have me (as evidenced by your response)
: Everyone has an opinion. Yours may be well thought out and valid, but many (including me) don't share it. We are not martyrs. We are NOT being attacked because the Muslims are offended that we believe Christ is the Messiah. We are not being persecuted for our Christian beliefs in any way. We are being targeted for everything from our capitalist wealth and western ideals to our support of Israel with American weapons and finances (and our government's decisions in this area are NOT for any "Christian" reason, but purely political). Furthermore, Israel is not being attacked because they believe Isaac is the chosen son of Abraham rather than Ishmael. It's all about LAND. To spiritualize this into Christian martyrdom is about what I would expect from some fundamentalist church leaders (although they may respond by calling for air strikes rather than for tolerance).
: This is a criminal act, not an act of war by any nation. Truly no single nation can be held responsible, as the terrorist factions even in Muslim nations are a minority. (On the other hand, if some nation's government should knowingly and willingly harbor those who are guilty of these horendous crimes, then they have decidedly allied themselves with the terrorists and their terrorist acts, and as such, could be construed as conspirators.)
: Criminal justice does not stop within the borders of the United States. Criminals (especially mass-murderers) can and should be pursued world-wide with all the help that is available from our allies. This criminal justice system is ordained of God and there is nowhere that it is condemned in our Scriptures. To blur this issue by misapplying the ideal of non-retailiation is just poor thinking. It is like saying we should not punish the murderers and rapers of our daughters with jail time because Christ tells us to forgive. If that is your theological view, you are entitled to it. It is certainly not mine, nor was it Paul's or Peter's.