Posted by john on May 26, 2002 at 11:31:05:
In Reply to: the whole gay thing... posted by giveawayboy on May 26, 2002 at 07:29:01:
I have thought about this issue, and many other hard issues like this alot, and one thing keeps coming back to put me at ease. This is the realization that i don't have to figure it out. I was raised in a fairly conservative Christian environment with definitive rights and wrongs. I was taught just like your unsilentHam friend that the Bible held all the answers if we just learned how to read it right. The problem is that it can be "read right" by different people and come up with entirely rational different conclusions. Your friend, like many people in my family and my original church, has a good heart, but can't see that his viewpoint could possibly be wrong. It would likely shake his faith beyond repair (or rather he is subconsciously scared it would) His world wouldn't make sense if the authority and rules weren't absolute. now I'm not slamming him, because I've learned that sometmes we need our crutches. But I'd also be the first person to kick the crutch out from under him and force him to walk on his own. Anyway this prefaces my viewpoint.
I think that all things are good and pure in their original form. I think every desire is ultimately from God and that means it can't be wrong in itself. But I also think that this world is highly polluted and perverted, so what is good in it's pure form is not in its perverted manifestation. So where does homosexuality fall in here? I don't know. I feel certain that if the the desire to be close to the same sex is truly inate, then it has a form that is pure and holy. This is not to say that having sex is included in this holy aspect. it may be that certain people are not meant to experience that. We too often give sex a god-like status in our society. however, it is insane to think that these same people are destined to live forever without experiencing the closeness between two people that they desire like any of us. What I'm saying is that I think it is possible for two people of the same sex to have an intimate closeness and still be right with God, however this may not include sex. Then there is the other possibility, and many would disagree, but I think many homosexuals feel attracted to the same sex as a result of psychological issues rather than pure born-in desire. The two would be almost indistinguishable from the outside, but if this is the case it may be that these gays are simply in need of help to rehabilitate their understanding of sex and personal relationships. Our society so strictly enforces the "sex is god" paradigm that many who fall outside the typical patterns end up confused and psychologically distressed. So then turning to the gay culture and lifestyle provides a way out and a safe place. I think this is the case with the recent explosion of gay teens.
And then there are countless other possiblities, just as Bill said, you can't stereotype, each person is different. So in light of this, and returning to my original point, I don't care if someone is gay or straight, or trying to be celibate or whatever. I think we all sin all the time and none of us have God all figured out. But we all beleive that if we have a relationship with Jesus, we are restored to him by his blood. So if someone accepts Jesus legitimately in his heart and loves him truly, but lives his whole life struggling with homosexuality, or thinking he is okay to have a monogomous gay relationship. Is he any less worthy of being forgiven than the person who spends his whole life judging and condemning homosexuals because he feels he is justified by the Bible? Both are clear sins according to the text of the Bible, so obviously it can't be works that gets us to heaven! DING! whoa, revelation, so you mean it is grace that saves us, that is-unmerited favor, that is the sole property of the giver to give or take away as he sees fit? What a concept!
Forgive the sarcasm, your friend annoys me too.
Good God, none of us are perfect, and I certainly don't trust my judgement enough to make the kind of descision that tells someone they are going to hell or not. My job is to love people where they are regardless of how much they sin, regardless of if they repent, regardless of if they ever figure it all out. All other descisions are God's and God's alone. Which is as it should be. I certainly feel freer knowing that the salvation of the world is not in my hands, it's already been done.
Point of note: what annoys me most about Mr Ham is not his viewpoint, but his arrogance.
: : okay you guys. i need to know i'm not an imbicile. someone on one of the livejournal communities i belong to, and i don't actually know this person, sent me an instant message tonight asking me about homosexuality. now, maybe its just me and the whole i'm just becoming a christian thing, but i don't get it. i have nothing against gays, that's their business. i know that's an issue for many, many christians out there. anywho. this person really got under my skin. here's the IM, and i would really like to hear others' opinions on this.
: O.K. Clover, here goes. First off let me make it clear that in sharing what I'm about to share I am in no way endorsing any sexual behavior outside of marriage. I am fairly traditional in that sense. However, I do have my own views on this. First off, being heterosexual or homosexual is not a matter of sin but of orientation. You can be attracted to the opposite sex or the same sex, or both and that does not equate to sin in any case. However, there are some Christians who believe that homosexual attractions are disordered attractions and that any sex outside of marriage is sinful. There are others who believe that not every case of sex outside of marriage is sinful. This would include homosexual activity. Most of these Christians would believe that a homosexual relationship could be pleasing to God if it occurs in a committed monogamous relationship. Experiencing homosexual orientation myself I would like the latter to be true, but my personal view is the former. I am still of the very traditional Christian mindset. One thing that troubles me is the anxiousness and emotionalism that is produced whenever the topic is brought up. Being a moral isssue it is already sensitive and 'loaded'. However, due to the recent scandals involving Catholic, Protestant and Jewish religious leaders in pedophilia and ephebophilia, many are targeting homosexuals for skapegoating reasons. This has me particularly wary. There are a million and one angles but you seemed to be asking for a general overview. For me to come out and say gay sex is a sin, would be hard since my mind is not entirely made up. However, as a Catholic I have clear guidelines from my church about this. It is sin to engage in sex apart from marriage. I can't deny that the church has said that. I also can't deny what might seem natural and normal to me. However, it might feel good and natural for some people to stick needles in their arms and inject dangerous substances into their bodies. This does not make something right--feeling natural I mean. I am a member of two groups which have helped me tremendously on this issue. They are both message boards and both would love to have you participate. Bridges Across the Divide is a great non-religious group where people from varying viewpoints come together and try to understand each other and build friendships. The good thing about this group is that no one is 'forced' into anyone else's positiong. These guys all know I'm a Catholic and they never try to talk me out of my beliefs. They do however try to understand why we have our 'sex if for marriage' viewpoint. This is a safe environment for getting to know other homosexually oriented people and seeing that they are not just a bunch of promiscuous people on some parade float. GayChristian.net is the second group, composed mainly of Christians, and very respectful of different viewpoints. On this board there are several non-sexually active people who believe in the traditional views. This is another place where you would be welcome to post your views. In many ways there is less fear and more openness when it comes to this topic. I hope that it will continue so that the walls between heterosexuals and homosexuals will come down. Also, I have many books on the topic from every perspective, if you should want to know some good ones. I would definitely make this issue a matter of prayer though, and seek God about it. Ask the Holy spirit to give eyes to your understanding on this. It's not an easy issue. But I don't think it has to be as intense as some people want it to be. Another angle to this is if it is sin, how will God judge homosexuals. Well, we need to avoid blanket statements here. One of the first assumptions your livejournal friend made was the one about rescuing souls from hell. Somehow we have taken homosexuality and put it on the top of the list right up there with murder or something. It is funny how quickly a heterosexual who is sleeping w someone they are not married to will judge a gay person and say that what that person does is so wrong. Well, sin is sin, whether a gay person or straight person sins. In God's eyes we are all his children and it offends his goodness when any of us sins. I think we need to get that whole gay/straight divide out of our thinking. It causes us to treat people as whats instead of whos. Well, Cory, I may not have told you anything definitive but frankly, that's because I don't know. I walk that tight rope every moment of my life. However, my identity is not in who I am attracted to, but in Christ. So, I don't have to take myself too awfully seriously.
: Hope you come to some peace on this, Bill