Posted by giveawayboy on June 06, 2002 at 08:07:14:
In Reply to: Re: Anti american americans... posted by john on June 06, 2002 at 06:55:56:
well, i would agree with alot of what you wrote, but i'm going to reread it tonight and then i'll give you a better response, point by point, plus i'll give you my broad view of America, which I am still forming. Steve Holland might also have interesting tidbits to add here, but he rarely comes to the board. He and I have a similar take on America. We are very pro-America, but not in the standard brainless flag-waving type way. It's more like rediscovering the American myth and realizing that it's fairly profound.
Later. Bill
******************************
: Well I suspect this is going to end up in a big discussion in which neither side changes their mind, but as the flag boy for this kind of thing I thought i should speak up.
: It isn't so much anti-america, as it is anti-corruption, anti-propaganda, anti-false freedom. The ideals this governement pretends to have long been lost. I am a diehard patriot in the sense that the original Americans rebelled against the tyrannical rulership of England, but now our own government has become what it hates. Internationally the US has a very different character. Here it is media controlled propaganda that attempts to snow americans into beleiveing they are the moral and just defenders of freedom, while countelss examples show our government to be imperialistic like anyone else.
: Secondly, our american culture is crass, selfish and extremely wasteful. On average, americans use far more resources per person than any other nation in the world. We crusade for environmental causes and then refuse to abide by them (Rio, and Rio+5). This nation generates fat, selfish, egotistical hypocrites. That is why I do not support it. If you want more concrete examples juist scroll down the board, we've been arguing this stuff since 9/11. Which I do think was a terrible tragedy for the record.
: Now of course everyone in the nation is not like the people i have described. There are many many good upstanding people, like you. But the problem is in the paradigm altogether. I don't think any modern governement has it right. I think the entire concept should be abandoned. Radical? yes. Here is my favorite example:
: A man built a flying machine and pushed it to the top of a tall cliff. He pushes it over the edge and begins polishing, pedaling, pumping, working to keep it in the air. And as it plummets toward the earth the man thinks, "so far so good".
: It's like the old cliche of polishing brass on the titanic, man the whole system is going down like a rock, and no one can stop it.
: So then, what do I beleive personally? That God places governments in power and he takes that power away. He is in control, and we are His children. Wouldn't our time be better served in teaching people how to love and live in that love regardless of the government. Let those things of the world come and go as they please, I prefer to live morally and justly and take care of my family and my tribe. If you feel called to work within the beast, by all means do it, but as for me, I choose to live in the greater reality where God changes people's hearts and lives.
: finally, it isn't always as simple as just moving out, which I would have done long ago, had other factors not come into play, such as my family, who wasn't willing to go, and the fact that I feel God placing me here right now. We often have to count things that we want as sacrifices to accomplish God's will, and I have offered my desire to move out of this country to him as one. I'll stay here until he lets me leave, and then I'll go. If that day never comes, then I can't change that. Not that I'm so all-fired patient, everyone knows I'm not. But I am trying to learn that it does no good to kick against the goads. The last time someone did that he got eaten by a fish and ended up right where God wanted him anyway. I've had my share of beating myself into the ground trying to run against God's hand.
: BTW, don't fall into the trap of viewing our country as the only civilized peaceful nation. This is American propaganda, every nation has it's good and bad, and some are worse than others, but this one has no monopoly on peace and civilization.
: : : this is what i will never understand..if you hate america so much..then get on the first boat on the way out...spend a few weeks elsewhere and we will see how much you will bitch then!!
: : : i juss dont get it..the world is in turmoil now..and here we have americans who dont vote..dont do a thing but complain....
: : : i am wonderin why....someone gimme some feedback on this
: :
: : Yeah, I agree. Good for you! I think more Americans need to take ownership of this landmass we live on and the opportunities we have here in our communities. It's too bad that we have given our country up. Hopefully, there will be others like you who see the good things about our country. There is nothing wrong with liking where you live, even when corruption is known to exist. What are we paying attention to? I'm w MisterMetal on this one!