Posted by giveawayboy y marcos on February 04, 2003 at 01:39:26:
This post comes out of a personal instant messaging session between Marcos and myself. In it we discussed the idea of feeling like we have a 'home' or sacred space, or creative space. Also, we discussed 'changing our nomos' and finally the porcupine of the gay person vs. gay sexuality and how we feel that gays should be treated in a church setting. I think Parallel Universe is already way ahead of the game here.
I would ask that if anyone reads this please realize that Marcos and I are revealing a personal message between us where we have enjoyed an inside understanding of things. If anyone does not understand something feel free to ask us. We are sharing our personal dialogue here since we both believed that there were some helpful things contained herein. Please respect our vulnerability. It is my hope that we can all work at getting to know each other better and try to forge a community worthy of a space. A building seems like a great idea, but I want to see us functioning as a good community first. Frankly, there are many of you who I still sadly, do not know very well. I look forward to getting to know some of you more in the months ahead.
By the way, nothing in this post is meant to be negative, but hopefully, all positive.
Thanks for reading, Bill
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what is home?
marc: I wish I could find some place or time where I would feel that I was going home
marc: I cannot
bill: right
marc: i feel like it says
marc: by minor threat
marc: yea
marc: "there's no place like home, right? so where am I
marc: so where am IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
bill: i see.
bill: maybe what you should do is sit down and think about what you consider are the qualities or identifying marks of 'home'
bill: keep talkin'
marc: maybe home is just a window in time
bill: maybe like steve said we recognize it and chronicle it.
marc: like an experience
marc: yea
bill: but stay moving
marc: yea
changing our 'nomos'
bill: sometimes i wonder if you are caught between two different realities and if you could just find out that they could all be a part of each other.
bill: the monk, the dancer, marcia, the librarian, the performance artist....
bill: all these things which are parts of you--you are like a multifaceted jewel
marc: yea
bill: i wish one day someone would uncover you
bill: really i do
bill: i think god must be polishing you. you might look like coal now, but you are a diamond
marc: add now a more political side
bill: yeah
bill: what you need is a place to plug all this in and let it all out
marc: but Im just looking at society
bill: you need a creative space and a prayer space
marc: yea,
marc: that sounds like the
marc: pink palace idea (the pink palace refers to the apartment that Marcos and I once shared in Palma Ceia)
bill: yeah
marc: the pink palace space
bill: today i was thinking i wanted a house so i could paint the walls all different colors (reading about Morocco tonight)
marc: that would be cool
bill: i want to change my nomos.
bill: i want to change my house
marc: i just got this
bill: k
marc: yeah, I see what your saying, that's probably what I need,
marc: It didnt appear before, weird
marc: yea, indeed, I must try
bill: what?
bill: what didn't appear before ?
marc: sorry to confuse
marc: the last posts
marc: about changing the nomos
gays in church?
marc: I was tallking about a nature program last nite (discussing incidents of homosexuality among animals)
marc: but the presenter actually said that [that phenomenon] is over emphazised to suit gay agendas
bill: oh i agree
marc: even though the presenter himself was gay
bill: right. just like the guy who wrote that book PICTURING MEN was gay but insisted that his book was not about 'gay' things, but about men.
marc: yea,
bill: or just like the native american concept of two-spirit people, where some people will come and use this as justifying homosexuality
bill: perhaps [gay people] are supposed to be OTHER but not sexualize it.
bill: i'm still not sure. i think Paul must have known about this.
marc: yea, im looking at it as a gift (here Marc refers to the people God made us to be originally and not to what sin does to us, he takes into account characteristics that are often associated w gay people which are not really a function of homosexuality. They really have more to do w a personality type than any immorality. i think Marc wants to redeem the word 'gay' and use it in a broader sense here. i hope Marc doesn't mind me adding these parantheses)
bill: right, Marc, I love ya man. You are helping me sooo much.
bill: to me this right here is REAL fellowship
bill: and also edification.
marc: well, paul?
bill: Paul, the Apostle
marc: was he overreacting to maybe homosexual
marc: not overreacting, but reacting
marc: maybe to ritual homosexual practice
bill: hmmmm....possibly
bill: can i tell you something marcos?
marc: yea?
bill: well, i just wanted to say that this week i got together w the members of gaychristian.net.
marc: cool
bill: we had a GREAT week,.
bill: We went to some Catholic churches.
marc: oh, yea, ok
bill: We even participated in ministry meetings.
bill: i have never just felt so human, and so real and so free.
bill: and the neat thing, SIN was not invovled
bill: i guess for one week of my life i just quit beating myself up.
marc: thats cool
bill: really.
marc: but you know what I would like to see?
bill: what?
marc: maybe someday
bill: go ahead......
marc: people wouldnt have to participate in gay ministry meetings, but just be a natural part of the church
bill: amen!
bill: agreed.
bill: as long as they aren't leading folks astray, since they should be accepted even w imperfections, like anyone else.
marc: of course, I know its a common struggle
marc: that brings them together but....
marc: maybe it wouldnt be such a struggle it they werent so demonized
bill: exactly
bill: i think the demonization of that particular sin is what reinforces it
marc: yea, I agree
marc: yea
bill: whereas if there was a group where they were just accepted and not made into the token gays, people would move on to other more interesting things and quit focusing so much on the gay thing. i mean, people who smoke can attend church. people who lie can come here. people who have had premarital sex can worship God, etc. there is hope and there is acceptance. this is not a justification of sin.
bill: man, i'd love to post this im.
marc: yea, thats good
bill: or at least parts of it.
marc: you can, feel free if you want
bill: hahaha, or maybe we could just start a discussion of this online. who knows?
marc: if you post it, it may
bill: yeah.
marc: oh, k
bill: maybe if we select parts of it we can.
marc: its kinda sad we cant be open enough about it yet
marc: its like the whole thing we were talking about
bill: yeah, but Marcos, really, are you referring to 'gay' things here or something more general
marc: right now to the last stuff, the "gay" stuff
bill: o.k. well, we can bring it up in diff. ways. i just wouldn't want to make it look like a bill-rogers-forced topic
bill: yeah
marc: i think some of the other stuff could tie together
bill: oh sure.