Posted by j on February 04, 2003 at 08:33:03:
In Reply to: marc & bill posted by giveawayboy y marcos on February 04, 2003 at 01:39:26:
: This post comes out of a personal instant messaging session between Marcos and myself. : By the way, nothing in this post is meant to be negative, but hopefully, all positive. *** Nothing stood out to me as negative... : Thanks for reading, Bill *** My pleasure! : ***************************************************** : what is home? : marc: I wish I could find some place or time where I would feel that I was going home *** ...then by that definition, a physical home is an environment (or 'space') where these 'home windows' are more prone to occur? : bill: maybe like steve said we recognize it and chronicle it. *** Forgive me for bringing up another "Waking Life" concept, but it sounds like the experience/moment/window, etc. is that sacred moment where we choose "yes" or "no." : changing our 'nomos' : bill: sometimes i wonder if you are caught between two different realities and if you could just find out that they could all be a part of each other. *** Yesterday I was thinking about this same concept, especially regarding part of the discussion Sunday where we were examining our lives in relation to others. I was thinking how my "realities" exist in the "Real" and the "Now." The Real is what exists in an eternal sense (the foundation in which we build). The Now is the space in which we build on the foundation: using gold and jewels or hay and stubble. : marc: yea *** What does the uncovering mean? Do you mean, you wish another dreamer would come along and identify the jewel? Or are you talking about the facets? : marc: add now a more political side *** What is this idea? : bill: yeah : gays in church? : marc: I was tallking about a nature program last nite (discussing incidents of homosexuality among animals) *** It seems that the demonization has had another result... There is homosexuality, and there is gay culture. You mentioned above that perhaps gay people are supposed to be OTHER but not sexualize it. I don't know if this is true or not, but it provides an interesting perspective... Again referring to Sunday, Steve pointed out that culture is a creation of man, and at some point, the culture becomes strong enough to stand on its own. Ultimately, the culture "lords over" those who identify with it. Its sole purpose is to survive, regardless of truth or reality. If you want to step into politics for a moment, in reality, Republicans and Democrats are no different than homosexuals, Yuppies, parents, students, dog breeders, and yes, Christians. It is very easy to see the survival instinct of a culture kick in: Republicans vs. Democrats, Homosexuals vs. Heterosexuals, Dog breeders vs. Cat breeders, etc. In some instances, these "battles" can be bloody. In others they aren't really battles at all, but a sharing of ideas and understanding. This is what we strive for... : marc: yea, I agree *** I think of it more as a bill-and-marcos-(inspired)-topic : bill: yeah
: I would ask that if anyone reads this please realize that Marcos and I are revealing a personal message between us where we have enjoyed an inside understanding of things.
:A building seems like a great idea, but I want to see us functioning as a good community first. Frankly, there are many of you who I still sadly, do not know very well. I look forward to getting to know some of you more in the months ahead.
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*** This is clearly the route we must take in order to build a foundational framework... specifically concerning community-building. I think opening our conversations over this electronic medium is a wonderful idea...
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: marc: I cannot
: bill: right
: marc: i feel like it says
: marc: by minor threat
: marc: yea
: marc: "there's no place like home, right? so where am I
: marc: so where am IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
: bill: i see.
: bill: maybe what you should do is sit down and think about what you consider are the qualities or identifying marks of 'home'
: bill: keep talkin'
: marc: maybe home is just a window in time
: marc: like an experience
: marc: yea
: bill: but stay moving
: marc: yea
: bill: the monk, the dancer, marcia, the librarian, the performance artist....
: bill: all these things which are parts of you--you are like a multifaceted jewel
: bill: i wish one day someone would uncover you
: bill: really i do
: bill: i think god must be polishing you. you might look like coal now, but you are a diamond
: bill: yeah
: bill: what you need is a place to plug all this in and let it all out
: marc: but Im just looking at society
: bill: you need a creative space and a prayer space
: marc: yea,
: marc: that sounds like the
: marc: pink palace idea (the pink palace refers to the apartment that Marcos and I once shared in Palma Ceia)
: marc: the pink palace space
: bill: today i was thinking i wanted a house so i could paint the walls all different colors (reading about Morocco tonight)
: marc: that would be cool
: bill: i want to change my nomos.
: bill: i want to change my house
: marc: i just got this
: bill: k
: marc: yeah, I see what your saying, that's probably what I need,
: marc: It didnt appear before, weird
: marc: yea, indeed, I must try
: bill: what?
: bill: what didn't appear before ?
: marc: sorry to confuse
: marc: the last posts
: marc: about changing the nomos
: marc: but the presenter actually said that [that phenomenon] is over emphazised to suit gay agendas
: bill: oh i agree
: marc: even though the presenter himself was gay
: bill: right. just like the guy who wrote that book PICTURING MEN was gay but insisted that his book was not about 'gay' things, but about men.
: marc: yea,
: bill: or just like the native american concept of two-spirit people, where some people will come and use this as justifying homosexuality
: bill: perhaps [gay people] are supposed to be OTHER but not sexualize it.
: bill: i'm still not sure. i think Paul must have known about this.
: marc: yea, im looking at it as a gift (here Marc refers to the people God made us to be originally and not to what sin does to us, he takes into account characteristics that are often associated w gay people which are not really a function of homosexuality. They really have more to do w a personality type than any immorality. i think Marc wants to redeem the word 'gay' and use it in a broader sense here. i hope Marc doesn't mind me adding these parantheses)
: bill: right, Marc, I love ya man. You are helping me sooo much.
: bill: to me this right here is REAL fellowship
: bill: and also edification.
: marc: well, paul?
: bill: Paul, the Apostle
: marc: was he overreacting to maybe homosexual
: marc: not overreacting, but reacting
: marc: maybe to ritual homosexual practice
: bill: hmmmm....possibly
: bill: can i tell you something marcos?
: marc: yea?
: bill: well, i just wanted to say that this week i got together w the members of gaychristian.net.
: marc: cool
: bill: we had a GREAT week,.
: bill: We went to some Catholic churches.
: marc: oh, yea, ok
: bill: We even participated in ministry meetings.
: bill: i have never just felt so human, and so real and so free.
: bill: and the neat thing, SIN was not invovled
: bill: i guess for one week of my life i just quit beating myself up.
: marc: thats cool
: bill: really.
: marc: but you know what I would like to see?
: bill: what?
: marc: maybe someday
: bill: go ahead......
: marc: people wouldnt have to participate in gay ministry meetings, but just be a natural part of the church
: bill: amen!
: bill: agreed.
: bill: as long as they aren't leading folks astray, since they should be accepted even w imperfections, like anyone else.
: marc: of course, I know its a common struggle
: marc: that brings them together but....
: marc: maybe it wouldnt be such a struggle it they werent so demonized
: bill: exactly
: bill: i think the demonization of that particular sin is what reinforces it
: marc: yea
: bill: whereas if there was a group where they were just accepted and not made into the token gays, people would move on to other more interesting things and quit focusing so much on the gay thing. i mean, people who smoke can attend church. people who lie can come here. people who have had premarital sex can worship God, etc. there is hope and there is acceptance. this is not a justification of sin.
: bill: man, i'd love to post this im.
: marc: yea, thats good
: bill: or at least parts of it.
: marc: you can, feel free if you want
: bill: hahaha, or maybe we could just start a discussion of this online. who knows?
: marc: if you post it, it may
: bill: yeah.
: marc: oh, k
: bill: maybe if we select parts of it we can.
: marc: its kinda sad we cant be open enough about it yet
: marc: its like the whole thing we were talking about
: bill: yeah, but Marcos, really, are you referring to 'gay' things here or something more general
: marc: right now to the last stuff, the "gay" stuff
: bill: o.k. well, we can bring it up in diff. ways. i just wouldn't want to make it look like a bill-rogers-forced topic
: marc: i think some of the other stuff could tie together
: bill: oh sure.