Posted by jonvon on December 10, 2002 at 22:33:42:
In Reply to: Immaculate Birth? posted by Bryon on December 10, 2002 at 11:11:47:
: I was listening to 90.5 Spirit FM. They play some good music. I was fine listening to everything until I heard something a little disturbing. They said that they were celebrating the Immaculate Birth of Mary. They said that she was born without the stain of sin. I don't know how that would be possible because that would mean that her parents would have to be sinless (without the disease) in order not to pass it on. That, then, would have to go all the way back to the origin of her line and being completely sinless.
yeah, it doesn't really make sense, this is true. there is a Catholic feast day called The Incarnation, i believe. a priest told me one time that a lot of people assume that its about Christ, the incarnation of God in the flesh, but he said it isn't, its about Mary, in her sinless state incarnating Christ through the virgin birth. bill correct me if i'm wrong here. The whole thing about Mary being without sin was really important to the priest who told me that. (I basically grew up Catholic, 5th to 12th grade). At the time I was Catholic, and even then it didn't really make sense to me. As you say... it becomes some sort of bizarre chicken and egg sort of idea.
: As far as I know, the scriptures speak of only one sinless person, Jesus Christ. I haven't found anywhere mentioning Mary as sinless.
and you won't. Catholics also believe (at least the official position of the church) that mary was always a virgin, and say that the word for "brothers" when it speaks of Jesus' brothers really meant cousins, or at least could have meant that. the word (according to a different priest i knew) for brother and cousin in the aramaic is supposed to be interchangeable. and course they insist that it was meant in the "cousin" sense. i haven't looked it up so i don't know. but something about this seems silly to me too. the thing about is, none of this is necessary... it doesn't make Jesus any more divine or anything. if anything it seems to take away from all that.
: Wouldn't this be confusing for those who are not christian to understand the idea that Christ had to be sinless to be the perfect sacrifice in order to be able to be the atonement for our sins?
yes, it could be. i don't think its a big enough flaw to make a stink about, but in my opinion it is a flaw theologically. i'm just a regular guy though, what do i know?
: Do catholics consider themselved christians? If so, why do they say they do things for the community and for other people to become "better catholics"?
catholics do consider themselves to be christians. they have some strange doctrines here and there but overall they are fundamentally sound. as john mentioned there are things held over from medieval times that have not been updated yet. they are christians. as in any big religion there are people who are catholic who just are that way because they were raised that way and may not have had any real conversion experience. but there are many catholics who do have a real experience with Jesus. and there is a very strong contemplative tradition in the catholic church that many protestant churches could learn a lot from.
the word catholic just means universal. so as john mentioned it's "the universal church". they could be saying that inclusively, that all christians are brothers universally no matter what denominational lines they stand behind. i've never heard a catholic say that though, its interesting. you've been hearing them pray that on the radio?
: All of this is just a little confusing to me.
: I want thoughts on this from you all, at least from those of you who may know why they believe these things and anything that would help me know the truth or malady of this doctrine. I am not looking to start a fight, I just want to know how they can believe that and if there is any scriptural support for it.
as far as to "why" they believe this stuff, like john alluded you would have to do a study of catholic church history. you aren't going to find the reasons in the bible. the reasons i heard priests give were rather lame, didn't seem very well supported logically or scripturally. essentially their reasoning at some point seemed to boil down to, "this is what they taught me in seminary, and its the official position of the church, and i believe it".
its only been a relatively short time that the catholic church has been explaining anything to anyone... before Vatican II the mass was said in latin and everything was sort of behind a veil, so to speak. the important thing to know is that the basic truth of who jesus is and was and will be is intact in the catholic faith. i love the catholic church. i may end up going back to it. these things about mary and whatnot are sort of like little sideshows. a lot of people make a big deal about these things, but they aren't really very central, at least not in my experience. it was always much more about jesus.