Posted by giveawayboy on December 10, 2002 at 23:58:34:
In Reply to: Re: Immaculate Birth? posted by jonvon on December 10, 2002 at 22:33:42:
John: yeah, it doesn't really make sense, this is true. there is a Catholic feast day called The Incarnation, i believe. a priest told me one time that a lot of people assume that its about Christ, the incarnation of God in the flesh, but he said it isn't, its about Mary, in her sinless state incarnating Christ through the virgin birth. bill correct me if i'm wrong here. The whole thing about Mary being without sin was really important to the priest who told me that.
Bill: Well, honestly John, it seems like you were talking to a priest who was a bit happy on the Mary tip that day. Actually, it includes Mary in the sense that her YES to God was a very important factor in God's incarnation but the feast still commemorates Christ as the Incarnation of God.
John: As far as I know, the scriptures speak of only one sinless person, Jesus Christ. I haven't found anywhere mentioning Mary as sinless.
Bill: I believe you are right. I personally believe that this is a normative principle in the scripture, talking about mankind in general. Mary, being part of mankind was also saved from original sin. The only difference for Catholics was the timing in her case. It was in advance. By the way, not all Catholics believe this teaching. There are dissenting parties. However, they should really check out the teaching or kindly go to some other church.
John: Catholics also believe (at least the official position of the church) that mary was always a virgin, and say that the word for "brothers" when it speaks of Jesus' brothers really meant cousins, or at least could have meant that. the word (according to a different priest i knew) for brother and cousin in the aramaic is supposed to be interchangeable. and course they insist that it was meant in the "cousin" sense. i haven't looked it up so i don't know. but something about this seems silly to me too. the thing about is, none of this is necessary... it doesn't make Jesus any more divine or anything. if anything it seems to take away from all that.
Bill: John, I will kindly disagree here. Still, I'm not telling anyone what to believe. I as a Catholic believe that Jesus had brothers, but I do not believe they were Mary's children. I have historical reasons for believing this. I would never try to advance this as Parallel Universe's position, especially as I know Steve doesn't believe it. Still, I have no proof that these sons were Mary's. In my own experience, I have not been presented with anything like ACTUAL evidence that Mary had sexual relations or actual children beyond Jesus. I have however been presented with more than enough evidence that not only Catholics, but even some of the first Protestants believed in her ongoing virginity. So, historically, it is more like a novelty to believe that she isn't still a virgin, even though i'm sure there were always pockets of those who did not believe. If I ever find out that Mary indeed had sexual relations with anyone I will have to reevaluate my relationship to the Catholic Church. And yes, I DO believe the brother/cousin thing. I'm not trying to prove any points here. Just wanted to sort of give my side of this. I used to think, what does it matter, since that would have all happened POST-Jesus anyway. But, I think things matter because they are either true or they aren't.
John: in my opinion it is a flaw theologically. i'm just a regular guy though, what do i know?
Bill: John, how did you arrive at that belief? Just curious. And you are NO regular guy. You are one of the best poets and most beautiful guys I know.
Bryon: Do catholics consider themselved christians? If so, why do they say they do things for the community and for other people to become "better catholics"?
Bill: Catholic was a name we got long ago, and it just sort of stuck! :)
John: catholics do consider themselves to be christians. they have some strange doctrines here and there but overall they are fundamentally sound.
Bill: I'll agree we do have some strange doctrines. Just start with baptism. Then move on to the eucharist. This stuff is almost just like mystery religions. Hehehehe
John: as john mentioned there are things held over from medieval times that have not been updated yet. they are christians. as in any big religion there are people who are catholic who just are that way because they were raised that way and may not have had any real conversion experience. but there are many catholics who do have a real experience with Jesus. and there is a very strong contemplative tradition in the catholic church that many protestant churches could learn a lot from.
Bill: Great stuff John. Well said! :)
John: the word catholic just means universal. so as john mentioned it's "the universal church". they could be saying that inclusively, that all christians are brothers universally no matter what denominational lines they stand behind.
Bryon: I want thoughts on this from you all, at least from those of you who may know why they believe these things and anything that would help me know the truth or malady of this doctrine. I am not looking to start a fight, I just want to know how they can believe that and if there is any scriptural support for it.
Bill: Good for you! I can show you some great websites on it. Also, there is scriptural support for it, but it is not obvious. But remember, Catholics do not believe that everything they teach HAS TO BE STATED in the Bible. But that's a whole separate topic. We do however, like Protestants, believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, and we are careful to study it and encourage MUCH study of the Bible.
John: as far as to "why" they believe this stuff, like john alluded you would have to do a study of catholic church history. you aren't going to find the reasons in the bible. the reasons i heard priests give were rather lame, didn't seem very well supported logically or scripturally. essentially their reasoning at some point seemed to boil down to, "this is what they taught me in seminary, and its the official position of the church, and i believe it".
Bill: Yeah John, this burns me up. Sounds like you got these sort of mousy priests, who don't know a thing about Protestant sensibilities, or even non-Christian sensibilities. I'm sorry you had those experiences. I guess my experiences were different, w priests, who had once been protestants, who KNEW the Scriptures and even knew Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic,not to mention history. The problem w alot of Protestant teachers, NOT STEVE, who is both my guru and rabbi, is that they only know the Bible, oh yeah, they know it inside and out, but they don't know JACK about church history, or even world history.
John: its only been a relatively short time that the catholic church has been explaining anything to anyone... before Vatican II the mass was said in latin and everything was sort of behind a veil, so to speak. the important thing to know is that the basic truth of who jesus is and was and will be is intact in the catholic faith. i love the catholic church. i may end up going back to it. these things about mary and what not are sort of like little sideshows. a lot of people make a big deal about these things, but they aren't really very central, at least not in my experience. it was always much more about jesus.
Bill: Yeah, John, I agree, they are important as support doctrines, but the SOURCE AND SUMMIT of our faith is Jesus. Also, this is the main thing, everything that seems strange and odd about Mary or the saints, or any other Catholic teaching, somehow is like a strange magnifying glass to Jesus. Really. Those things which we think obscure him are actually those things that if approached in the right way, if understood in the right way, will help link us to him. They are all meant to be vehicles of GRACE. The whole basic teaching of Catholicism boils down to JESUS.