Re: On boy, have you baited me with this one...

Subject:

Comments:
: : "But more to the point, if your study did not convince you of how relative the history of the development of your own religion is to you and your faith, you somehow missed all the important issues, or else they were sugar-coated for you." : -Oh, it is relevant. Quite so. It is the key point of my faith, and the key difference between my church and all the others. And the key reason that most Christians reject us and say we are wrong. It is a challenge to beleive what I do, and I have lost friends over it. I think it has not been sugar-coated. : : "Beware of anachronistic and culturally decontextualized interpretations of Jesus' teachings. And beware of any teacher who only presents one viewpoint on every issue. They are recreating you in their image, but not helping you think." : -Valid warnings. I hope I did not imply that my church fits them. Believe me -- my church teaches many viewpoints, teaches where they came from, the context of it all, and then tells us NOT to just accept their answers, but to go learn on our own, and pray to Jesus to know whether or not what they say is true. Actually, they get annoyed when people just listen and accept without thought. : "That is their job--to provide easy and comprehensible answers, to shield their flock from the really difficult questions and the embarrassing history of the development of their theology, to make sure no other alternate view is presented as valid (then you would have to think!), and keep everyone believing exactly the same way for the unity of the body." : -No. That attitude is the reason why I left organized religions for a long time. I can repeat this again and again, but it boils down to the same thing: We are encouraged to think, study, pray, and decide on our own. Every day, we are encouraged to actively decide whether or not we still believe and want to be a part of the church. : And our history... oh, yes... is more embarassing than most. It is downright sad. It is not hidden -- it is explained. I have read the writings of the people who made bad decisions, and know why they did. Unlike most of the public who simply denouces the bad decision. : : "Teach you different ways to think? So you can take issues of ultimate concern and engage them in different ways?." : -Hehe. True. :) : : "You yourself learn philosophy every day you're in church. It is someone else's philosophy that you accept as truth with minimal questioning--but it is philosophy none the less." : -It is philosophy -- but dare I repaeat it again? Stop the assumption of minimal questioning. My church encourages the opposite. The fact that we encourage questioning and thinking and still have many members who stick around despite persecution and the rest of the wrold saying we are wrong should be earning respect. Even if people disagree with us, our faith is strong, and they could at least respect us for that... but i digres... : "You have not studied what you say you have if you honestly think the answers are clear." : -Well, there is one key fact that I am leaving out. Because it is the fact that is both the basis of my church, and the reason most people reject us. We beleive that all that history you speak of is unrecoverably convulted due to the lack of God's direct presence. So we skip it. We go straight to the source. We get our answers via prayer. Directly from God via the Spirit. So that is how the answers can be clear. : Now, there are two choices to be made here -- do you believe that God can communicate directly with us and give us clear answers in today's time or not? If you do... then you can understand why my answers are clear and how I can just skip all the historical jumbles. If you do not, then you think I am wrong, and I will respect your decision in that regards if you respect my decision to stick to my beliefs. : "Why are there so many versions of Christianity? Why is yours the truth?" : -Now you are asking the question from before -- the history of the development of my church. Why are there so many versions? Because Jesus and his apostles died. The teachings got confused over the years. People added on, or changed them, or forgot parts. Disagreements spread. Churches splintered. Why is mine the truth? See above paragraph -- direct communication. : I should note -- yours is probably also the truth. We do not believe that other churches are 'Wrong.' We believe that they are simply picking up on parts of the whole truth, as they can gather them from history. We do not have the whole truth either... we just have a line of communication to correct ourselves when we go astray. (Which we do...) : "I might add: Religions are usually concerned with the essence of truth, but are often ignorant of their own histories--the history of the development of their essential views! They think somehow that their beliefs are timeless and unchanging, and have always existed as they are now, and they are unconcerned with the forces that have changed their essential views through the centuries." : -Our beliefs change constantly. Our history shows this. Not the core beleifs of Christianty, but the details of doctrine that seem to be what gets so confusing and misunderstood. We recognize our mistakes, we learn new truths, we adjust ourselves to handle this. We have a record of every change and teaching and thought that has gone into the church since it was founded. : "Only by learning the history of your faith would you ever begin to realize it. That is my point. And when you do begin to realize that most of the things you thought were "God-breathed" are really the ideas of men, you start asking again about the nature of God, and you desire to learn to love Him apart from the theological politics which have so colored and shaped your faith." : -And that is exactly the argument that can be used to destroy faith in any church. This argument is a double-edged sword. It protects you from false churches at the same time as closing your heart to true churches. : I understand your argument. I really do. That is why it is called faith. A leap of faith to be exact. Sure, the doctrines of my church could have been made up by its founders. That is possible. But I have prayed. I have read hundreds of pages from the diary's of the founders. I have studied the opponent's writings. And after all that, I choose to believe that their founding of this church truly was from God. Could I be wrong? Sure. But I have chosen to take this leap of faith. : If you use your argument to reject anything that comes of any man, how can you ever expect to totally believe in a church? : "The doctrine your church believes--I'm sure have been taught that it is how the apostles and the early church really believed--but is it? How would you ever know? By reading the gospels out of context with assumed interpretations? How can you shake free of any conditioning to think objectively, if you have no other good input?" : -And that is a valid failing of many members of my church. Many of them do not think. Despite the encouragement to do so. Many of them are closed, unthinking people who just go about their daily lives. I, however, am not one of them. I am sorry to admit that so many of our members are. But that is their choice. : But to answer directly... is it what the apostles believed? Certainly not. Or not exactly. We have more information then they did. We live in a different time period. What would be the point of re-creating exactly the same church that existed 2000 years ago? We've been down that path already. No, we believe the same core beleifs, but we recognize the difference in times, and we act accordingly. : : "Now I am not saying your church is bad or that you are not learning truth. But it is a truth that has been interpreted, simplified, standardized, and applied for you--pre-digested, if you will." : -Partially true. But we un-digest it. As we learn more, when we sit down and teach each other every sunday, we deconstruct things. We break it down. And when people are ready, and they understand, then we go into the more in-depth study which you are pursuing. : Again, as I have posted elsewhere -- your assumptions about my church are the reason I left organized churches. The fact that I joined one again means they do not fall into these categories. : : "I guess the main question comes down to this--if you were wrong about something, would you want to know? Your answer seems to be no, at least for right now. That is fair enough, and may be actually the best answer for now. But at least we should all realize this crucial question and our response to it for what it really is. :-)" : : -Yes, I would want to know. And I have found problems with my church that caused me great stress, because I thought I found something wrong. But being in this church gives me the faith to stick to my beliefs when I find these, and gives me time to truly examine them and look for the answers. Things will come up that seem wrong. I have found them. I have pursued them, and resolved them. And stuck with my church. I expect this to continue. : There are many books and anrticle sout there that supposedly prove my church wrong. I have read some of them, compared the thoughts, and stuck with the church. : If ever this church is truly proven wrong, I will never return. You can believe that. So far, not only has it not proven to bewrong, but some things have been proven true. : : Now, I hope I did not sound too defensive here. But I do get defensive. My family thinks I am an idiot for my beliefs. Three former friends do not speak to me anymore because of my beliefs. People tend to write me off as worthless once they realize what I believe. Does this make me defensive? Yes. Does it make most members of my church defensive? Yes. So why do we stick to what we profess? Because we truly do believe. The faith of the membership of my church is awesome. And the blessings that we receive are amazing. As I said, agree or disagree with what we teach, please at least repect our faith. : With Love, : Bob - the Alien

Optional Link URL:
Link Title:
Optional Image URL: