Posted by giveawayboy on November 15, 2001 at 16:26:34:
In Reply to: Re: verses- help me find one or more posted by John on November 14, 2001 at 17:08:35:
first on all the stuff about Jonvon not knowing who he is right now and on John not agreeing with everything about Catholicism but still appreciating the form of it, without being bound to it, and also being a mystic and connecting w God via nature (Romans ch. 1)......
I soooo love this guys. I am a walking mirror of Jonvon in certain respects. After 6 years of journeying to Catholicism and 3 years of active practice as a Catholic I too can say I really don't know who I am right now. But I would like to caution a few people who I already know are or will be assuming that I was looking to Catholicism for some sort of identity that they are wrong. I became a Catholic, not because I needed 'ritual' or 'complexity' or 'form' or 'personal identity'. I became a Catholic because at some point I came to a conviction that, amidst all her clunkiness, the Church was true. I had several very good reasons for this which I can still discuss, but the purpose of this post is not apologetic. I am here to say that I, like John, do not KNOW much of anything right now when it comes to religion. To me, this uncertainty does no harm to my participation in the sacraments as they are all predicated on faith anyway, and not certainty. They are all an appeal to a MYSTERIUM TREMENDUM AD FASCINANS, which we have been told is alot like the wind. We can see where it has been, but we can not truly SEE it, only it's effects. That the Catholics get tied up in definitions and legal muck is true. That all Catholics suffer from this is a minomer. That some people see the Pope as a demigod and do not think for themselves does not discount all the Catholics whose choices and beliefs are formed by will, thought and conscience. By the way, the Pope lives his life very humbly before the people. I have friends that know him personally. That the Church defines a few things, like the Trinity or Salvation through Christ for instance, does not indicate that they are trying to be demigods and THINK for everyone. They are basically doing their best to receive what God has revealed and transmit it. This is called being able to a give a reason for what you believe. The Church does this. She is supposed to. Anyway, I wanted to say that even though I still believe Catholic faith, I do not do it easily or without MUCH doubting. Infact the more I grow in truth the more I doubt and question the same things over and over. There is a sense of security knowing that if God exists he is in control, but it's not this brass kind of certainty.....it is more of an experiencial thing.
Anyway, applauds to John and Jonvon for going down this real interesting crooked path.
It's funny, since all my life I've been either a real orthodox Methodist, evangelical or Catholic, but I am seriously having tons of doubt about almost everything I've ever believed. Part of this is due to the fact that all those things, those parts of the Christian truth are related to each other. Each affects the other. It is rather hard to conceive of salvation for instance without also conceiving of something from which to be saved, like sin, or a godless future. It's hard to isolate a moral issue for instance, when it is directly tied either the Law, or the Body of Christ or the image of God. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that if I entertain a doubt about one Christian truth there is a practical possibility that I actually am doubting the whole thing.
So, right now I'm a Catholic who reads alot of Buddhist and Hindu books. I am someone who doesn't believe in reincarnation who reads alot about principles such as 'bodhicitta' which directly relate to reincarnation. I am someone who very badly wants resolution on some spiritual or doctrinal issues and who is also growing weary of 'needing' resolution. I know only a few things, that God most possibly exists, and that if he does, the corollary to that would be loving my neighbor. I can see this in all religions that I have studied enough of. It is imperative that I as a Catholic agnostic, who still believes in the Bible and the Nicene Creed, try to love my neighbor. And who is my neighbor? And what is love? These are more important questions to me than teetotalling and drawing moral and doctrinal lines. I know that one of the most respected paths in Mahayana Buddhism is that of the bodhisattva who postpones his entry into nirvana until he relieves the sufferings of others. I know that in Hinduism, especially for devotees of Rama, the most important thing is not loving God for what God gives you, but loving God for the sake of love alone. Hanuman, the monkey god, demonstrates this. I want to remind myself to watch Hanuman's response to God. He was like the John the Baptist of Hinduism. He only wanted to decrease so Rama could increase. Hanuman only wanted to point to Rama, who only happened to be God. Hanuman was also like Jonathan. He fell in love with Rama immediately and was willing to risk his life to serve him and never left his side. Now as a Christian I truly believe Jesus is God and that he is my personal saviour, but I don't KNOW this as much as I FAITH this. Does that make sense? So, I want to be the Hanuman of Christ. I want to have that devotion to Jesus. In Buddhism, Avalokitesvara is the compassionate bodhisattva who hears the cries of the whole world and comes to aid them in their sufferings. Well, as a Christian I believe that Jesus does this for us. He hears the cries of the sea of humanity all at once. I do not know whether the bodhisattvas are real or not, just as much as I don't know if the current Dalai Lama is really incarnated. But I know this, it is good to relieve suffering. This is even part of the gospel. So, for me as a Catholic, I don't always feel comfortable in the Church. I don't always blindly buy into it all. I doubt it alot, but I also see ideals there, like the ideal of devotion and the ideal of relieving the sufferings of others, basically, love of God and love of neighbor.....I see them there, enshrined in the sacraments, housed in the traditions, incarnated in the worshipping body that touches me each week. I see that when I come to CLF too.
So, even though I can't UNDERSTAND it or even though it's not always CONVENIENT, I can at least get a frame of reference. I don't even know what my main point was other than some strange bird flung at Andromeda. Hopefully, there are sprinkles of light through here. Suffice it to say that stale, verse by verse Christian triteness does not appeal to me. Right now I need to learn real lessons. I need to be more of a mystic. I need to be more down to earth. I need to be more out in the universe. I need to read a good book. I need a physical connection to something other than someone who wants me to go to their worship service. I need to paint more. I need to learn how to be Hanuman more. I need to learn how to act more like Avalokitesvara. I need to listen to some more Smashing Pumpkins.
Bill, who sees through a darker glass than ever, and who isn't scared to let people know that he doubts most of the truth most of the time.........but still believes.........