Posted by john on November 13, 2001 at 09:49:43:
In Reply to: Re: verses- help me find one or more posted by jonvon on November 12, 2001 at 22:12:58:
Well I understand you were just running with a thought, so no need to belabor the point, but I was refering to the fact that in the non-institutionalized, or at least less-institutionalized versions of Christianity there is no solid definition of what qualifies one as married in the eyes of God. Many just use the marriage license, but I touched on that. The Catholic comment was because in that institution the Church itself is God's authority on matters that are unclear otherwise. so to someone who submits to this authority then marriage in the eyes of God is marriage according to church rules. We as "protestants", or whatever, suffice to say "non-catholics", as a rule don't abide by Papal decrees. So without debating the merits of rome and church authority, the fact is we don't have that standard and are forced to look elsewhere.
Now to expand slightly on some of your ideas. (Caveat: I do not find special exception with the Catholic church. and honestly think they do very well as far as instituions of Chrisitanity go. And I think Carol Wotia (sp) is very cool.) I think that one of the main problems with institutions of religion, apart from the possibility of abuses which you mentioned, is that there is a tendency in human nature to say, "I don't want to think, just tell me what to do." Thus when an institution, either intentionally or by way of explaining things to form concensus, lays out something that becomes "doctrine" people check their brains and eventually they end up buying indulgences. In other words they quit trying to work on relationships and just follow the rules.
"If I go to mass and confess regularly I'm going to heaven." "If I go to church every Sunday and do my devotions every morning, I'm right with God" "If I boycott all aspects of the evil empire in our government, I'm bringing in the Kingdom of God." You get the idea.
We both know that it's a relationship, not a system of rules. Doctrine is a human creation. This brings me back to my original comment about God knowing what he was doing and the heart being hard to fool. It is the burden of freedom that we can't skip out on our responsiblity. This is the sum total of Existentialism, really. We have to evaluate and make choices and, right or wrong, we have to live with the consequences. The reason this is not hopelessly bleak is that we add in the dimension of a loving God who is there to help us and restore us. So for me, no institution will suffice, despite all the good they do, they are fundamentally flawed. To me the body of Christ is all of his followers including their denominations and their flawed theology. But I completely disagree that any human institution, or human for that matter, no matter how big or old or how well they can justify their authority as coming from God, has such authority to tell me what God says. Ultimately we should follow only God. Yes he sets up authorites and he takes them down. He tells us to submit to these authorities, but we are called to follow him first. Again we can't make this a blind line to cross, sometimes you can't submit. Of course now we are WAAAAYYYYYY off the subject.
so I guess my point was that while institutions may serve a purpose to people, it is the people who are important and God who has the authority. I guess the postulation that gave rise to this whole Refuge/ Crossover phenomenon is still very active in my heart. Steve told me once that it started with the idea: If there really was a God trying to reach out to each and every one of us personally, what would that church look like? Where God talks to the hearts and minds of the people and they respond to his leading.
It redefines our boundaries because someone who is called by God to join the priesthood could be just as right as someone who is called to leave the Institutional church. Wow!
: : But as Cindi was saying it leads to wondering what exactly qualifies as marriage. Of course if we were Catholic this would be easy because legal and church authority have a human agent.
: i'm wondering what other agent there is other than a human agent? there are plenty of scriptures that basically tell us that we are responsible to nurture God in one another. when you did it to the least of these you did it to me...
: we are vessels of God's blessing to and for one another, right? i guess you could go into the woods and have a ceremony just between you and your spouse, it sounds good to me on some levels. paula and it actually did something pretty similar. but i think that the church has a place in our lives that can be very good. i really don't have a problem with the institutionalization of the priesthood / ministry / whatever-you-want-to-call-it. i think it is a really good thing. like anything it can be abused but i think it serves a real purpose in a lot of people's lives. i think that it is true that God isn't concerned with a license or a piece of paper, but on the other hand Jesus seemed awfully concerned that we reach out to one another in love. marriage is a thing not to take lightly, so i wouldn't just walk up to anyone and say, "hey could you marry me and this woman? that would be COOL". ok, maybe i am that weird, but anyway, for most NORMAL people like medieval steve and bill rogers types, we'd want someone who seems to at least pretend that he knows what he is doing! right? i mean, i think that would be prudent. prudence seems to be what we are kind of getting around to in this thread methinks.
: john as always you make some really good points, most of which i'm just too busy (or lazy) to respond to, and i feel like i've taken your comment a bit out of context. but i wanted to say that as burned out as i am on certain aspects of the christian subculture as i have experienced it in my neighborhood i really do believe in the church very much, and i believe in the sacraments as well, including marriage. in other words, i believe that the church moving through people to minister to members of the body in certain sacramental acts like marriage is a very wonderful and healthy thing.